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Non philosophical/financial leaders, how do you manage ur economy?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by CivNoobie, Dec 25, 2012.

  1. CivNoobie

    CivNoobie King

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    It's not really economy, but I mean tech-wise, how do you advance?

    with philosophical, there's gonna be more GP (most likely great scientists) and you can simply let them join the city or bulb-teching, either way, your beaker will never be short.

    with financial, it's also a good idea to cottage anywhere near the river since you'd start with 3 gold!

    but what if you are someone like Justin or Boudica? how do you keep up with the tech with traits like 'aggressive', 'charismatic'?


    Bonus question: how many cities do you settle down normally?
     
  2. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    Ho ho ho *satan claus*, one is getting all sudden intellectual.

    ========================================

    Philosophical is not about getting more Great People in the end (in fact you get few more compared to one non-philo because after your 10 first GPeoples, :gp: needed per GPeople passes to 200 and lastly after your first 15 GPeoples, it goes 300 :gp:, which means that slow down makes philosophical no more advantaged in terms of more GPeoples) but getting them much earlier, which is useful for either a earlier Academy or earlier bulbing/more complex bulbing (like a GEngineer, which is difficult to get early, but can sometimes gotten fast thanks to Philo).

    Financial means one more :commerce: on 2 :commerce: plots, which is translated to early 50% commerce on a plot on the go. Although all game, you benefit more gold than non-FIN nations, FIN is all about the strong early boost. Of course, that doesn't mean you have to convert all grass tiles to cottages, but there is more incentive to do it along non-river tile since after 10 turns (normal speed), get 3 :commerce:. Another advantage, which is humongous now, is archipelago maps+FIN. Given most tiles are water tiles, that is tiles that are barely improvable, then FIN nations get a strong edge compared to non-FIN nations.

    AGG trait is bad because situational and non-economic.

    Charismatic is liked because of the early +2 happiness from monument and the trait itself, which is quite flexible on many starts, especially starts with a dearth of happy resources. Why happy resources are so important early; well, how are you gonna get a bigger city (=vertical growth) pre-monarchy and/or without Mids.
     
  3. Alchemind

    Alchemind Warlord

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    For me, at least, the strength will usually come into favor with more landmass. Landmass in itself and the number of cities equates to more research, so even though you'll have a poorer base rate a trait like charismatic can at least help you get more population and more land.
     
  4. jarhead_leif

    jarhead_leif Civ2ToT Modder

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    In addition, there is also bonus production for building "university".
    Demand techs (like the AI always do). ;)

    It depends. 6-10 founded cities maybe, unless I'm playing OCC. :lol:
     
  5. traius

    traius His own worst enemy

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    Keeping up without financial plagued me for a while too, until I played two games of Tokugawa in a row on the difficulty level I normally play at. Of course, I don't play on deity, and couldn't win deity with any leader (someday I hope to be able to), so it's not like I'm a master of "keeping up in tech" now anyway. It still probably improved my game, though.
    As for # of cities, one should generally make the decision about when to found/not-raze cities based on where the "break even" point is on the tech slider. As long as you can keep at 60%+ in research (or espionage or w/e) and break even, you should probably be expanding. If you are at war, there are extra costs on your army being outside of your borders and trade routes (potentially) being cut off, and these problems will disappear at your war's end, and 40% is probably more reasonable (though any "expansion" should be in the form of captured cities, not settling! Don't waste hammers on settlers in wartime, obviously!).

    Random extra hint: if you get to the point that razing your opponent's cities makes more economic sense than taking them, you should STRONGLY consider letting your opponent capitulate.
     
  6. Iranon

    Iranon Deity Whipping Boy

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    How to keep up without an economy trait?
    You don't, combinations with at least one economy trait are generally better.
    However, I have no strong preference between FIN, PHI, IND and consider ORG better than all of them.

    Two support traits aren't a total loss. EXP/IMP can push for very hard expansion but requires a little judgment - we get the best use when almost breaking the economy. CRE isn't very powerful in my opinion, but avoids many headaches; easy blocking of AIs can take a lot of strain off your economy because you can settle at your own pace. SPI allows some economic optimisation, but more importantly it is a very useful tool for diplomacy.

    How many cities to settle normally?
    I usually aim for 10-12 by 1AD. Temporarily straining one's economy is acceptable, technological advancement isn't a main concern in itself when the investments with the best long-term payoffs are workers, settlers and granaries. We just have to stay in trading distance because having to tech everything ourselves would be a major blow.
     
  7. bhavv

    bhavv Glorious World Dictator

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    Creative - half price libraries and easier to claim resource tiles with fast border pops. Build libraries everywhere, build farms and run a specialist economy.

    Organised - 50% reduced civic upkeep allows you to afford more cities. Half cost courthouses = 50% reduced maintenance for just 60 :hammers:.

    Expansive - faster workers and granaries make for the quickest city build up and growth in the early game. Extra health means larger cities.

    Charismatic - +2 :) per city with monument means two extra tiles worked per city, very powerful throughout the game (broadcast towers later on).

    Industious - half cost forges and fail gold for wonders.

    Imperialistic - rex your early cities much faster.


    Notable powerful trait combinations:

    Financial + Organised - makes the most possible GPT.

    Financial + Charismatic - work two extra cottages per city early on

    Financial + Expansive - Work two extra cottages later on due to higher possible popularion

    Creative + Expansive - fastest and best early game bonuses - half price granary and library, discounted workers.

    Creative + Philosophical - faster libraries, universities, and great scientists.

    Charismatic + Expansive - happiness and health to support two extra population points in all cities.

    Creative + Organised - loads of cheaper buildings

    Expansive + Organised - loads of cheaper buildings

    Expansive + Imperialistic - fast rexing, cheap workers, settlers and granaries.

    Creative + Imperialistic - fast rexing with border pops and cheap libraries and scientists to support an economic crash.

    Organised + Industrious - cheap wonders, forges, courthouses and factories. Most notable advantage - fastest possible Great Lighthouse.
     
  8. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    OP you don't need any trait to gain an economic advantage. How do you build a thriving economy and get ahead in tech? Well, you:
    Chop the forests in your capital, the hammers let you build some settlers for initial expansion, and you cottage those tiles and work the cottages early
    grab all luxury resources ASAP, like gold, gems, furs, etc, and work them right away
    expand quickly to 6-7 cities, have 1 GP farm, 1 hammer/military city, and the other 5 are commercial focused, which means you work as many cottages as possible, up to about 8-12, depending on the land. Of course often you can't work that many, but work as many as possible early on
    use the GP farm ASAP, it should be your 2nd or 3rd city, whip in a library and hire scientists right away
    If you have stone or marble you can build some wonders and have 2 hammer cities instead of 1, build wonders like the hanging gardens, great library, oracle, or mausoleum and taj.

    And all that isn't even getting into warfare. So what I'm saying is, you make an economy through strategy, not your traits. Don't get dependent on traits.
     
  9. CivNoobie

    CivNoobie King

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    wow, i forgot all about luxury resources... I never tech calendar or monarchy so that i've comepletely negulekt'd them!:mad:
     
  10. Kid R

    Kid R Emperor

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    Traits don't make as much difference as you think.
     
  11. tdy99

    tdy99 Prince

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    Cottages still work with non-financial. It really doesn't make all that much difference in the end if your cities are well placed.

    I find I can usually bulb philosophy and trade it for two or three techs which gives a nice boost if I am falling behind.

    Consider building Great Wall. You will end up getting a GP spy fairly soon afterward which can parlay into stealing 5-10 techs from a neighbor.
     
  12. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    Those luxury resources make a HUGE difference in the early game. Prioritize them.
     
  13. bhavv

    bhavv Glorious World Dictator

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    Monarchy + Hereditary Rule makes an even bigger difference than luxuries. Unlimited happiness from warriors.
     
  14. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    We're talking about the commercial output from the tiles, not the happy cap
     
  15. bhavv

    bhavv Glorious World Dictator

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    Higher happy cap = work more tiles / cottages = more commerical output.

    You arent going to get anywhere working 4-5 cottages per city instead of 10+ with Hereditary Rule. Happy cap directly relates to higher commerce output for every city.

    Calendar resources dont need to be prioritized at all, you can simply cottage them and calendar can be delayed for as long as you like. Its an insignificant and rarely important tech to have.
     
  16. MilesBeyond

    MilesBeyond Prince

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    These posts are the truth.

    You can play as Toku (AGG/PRO) and still have the best econ in the game. Traits don't impact that. Sure, if you've got two players on a symmetrical map doing the exact same moves, the one with FIN will have a stronger economy than the one that doesn't. But don't mistake this for meaning these traits are necessary. A good start, a sound strategy and efficient use of worker moves will all have a much larger impact on your economy than being FIN will. Similarly, a guy with a lot of luxury resources and religions in his borders will have a higher happiness than a CHA leader with few luxuries and no religion, a player with a large army will win more wars than an AGG player with a smaller army, someone with a large pop SE will likely spawn more GP faster than a PHI player with a small pop, etc.

    What traits DO impact is how you're going to achieve the goals you want to achieve. They make certain strategies or techniques more appealing. Taking a FIN leader doesn't guarantee you'll have the best economy, but it does instantly predispose you towards a Cottage Economy. IMP doesn't necessarily mean you'll have the largest empire, but it does make REXing more viable. Don't take AGG because you want to win Conquest/Domination, you don't need AGG to do that. Take AGG if the idea of building Medic I+March mounted units appeals to you.

    A great exercise, I think, would be playing a game where your goal is to win Space Race as the Japanese. I say this because neither of Toku's traits are particularly valuable for that VC, and so it will teach you how to do it without depending on the traits.

    TL;DR See the traits as a bonus that will help you do some things better, rather than as a pre-req that will allow you to do things at all.
     
  17. CivNoobie

    CivNoobie King

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    just gave up on another game, for some odd reason whenever i see stone, i'm tempted to build pyramid and go for representation
     
  18. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    All I said to the OP was that a good way to help the early economy is to prioritize high yield commerce tiles. You see a gold, silver, or gem mine? Put a settler there and work those tiles. Then what you said had nothing to do with the conversation, we aren't talking about pop caps. And even if we are...if you're performing a REX, getting monarchy instead of bee-lining currency is usually a bad idea
     
  19. bhavv

    bhavv Glorious World Dictator

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    You can trade for monarchy easily in any game, currency ALWAYS comes first. Nothing was implied in my post about the order in which you obtain techs. However for most games calendar is a junk tech to prioritize yourself, unless you need to race for Astronomy.

    Most of the best players on this forum highly value Monarchy, and with it they can grow 10+ size capitals within the BCs. Happy cap = Economy.

    Getting monarchy also has nothing to do with rexing, Currency is much more useful for that. From an economic viepoint, you are never going to get anywhere without HR (or Mids + Representation in some games).

    One of the biggest mistakes a lot of new players can make, and one of the worst advice that you can give them is to neglect their happy cap. Population and number of tiles worked (or for more advanced economies, specialists) are the most powerful method to boost your economy.

    Gold / Silver / Gems are always valuable to have and work, but you dont get them on most maps, and mining + BW should be obtained asap in most games anyway and working those resources is an absolute no brainer. However calender can be neglected entirely in every game in favor of monarchy - calendar resources work very well when cottaged instead in the early game, and for the happy cap hereditary rule is the easiest method to grow large and productive commercial cities.

    Every reliable economic strategy should be able to rely on cottages alone and currency + HR, as these are the only things you can guarantee on every map. Getting a start with golds / gems / silvers is like dropping the difficulty down by several steps.
     
  20. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    whoa bhavv, honestly, you show up in every thread to argue every point I have made in the last 4 days, and half the time you're not even talking about something relevant. Why don't you read a thread first before you post in it??

    The OP was asking for help with expansion. I told him one thing that helps is to find commerce tiles and settle near them and work them ASAP, like gems, gold, silver - FOR THE COMMERCE NOT FOR THE HAPPY CAP. End of story. If you want to add your own advise that has nothing to do with mine, go right ahead.
     

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