non-tradable advancements tech

timerover51

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Part of the problem with this particular scenario is that not only are all of the AI in contact with another from the start, The Netherlands, which is what I play (my family background is Dutch), has the fewest cities of any civilization on the board, three in the unmodified (by me) scenario and four in my modification. So I start in a far less advantageous position with respect to research and production of units. As a partial compensation, I give the Netherlands extra colonists at the start, along with some Leader units to rush a couple of Wonders for additional tech. I have several Wonders that give two bonus techs when built. However, it takes time for the extra colonists to get started building cities, and I have only three cities to initially build Wonders in. I manage to stay even with the AI at Regent by these means, but I would hate to think about higher playing levels. Theov, and any else who may be interested, whould you like a couple of biq files to look over?
 

Theov

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Two comments:
  1. I also find it quite annoying how the AI Civs so "unfairly" utilize Tech swapping, but I think that making more "surgical" selections of which Techs to make untradeable should be different for the overall, desired play balance for each mod (note @Civinator's comments in Post #5.)
  2. I generally hold off on Map Trading until the Second Era, as the AI can go so crazy with them that you might as well play without any Fog of War at all.
Just my dos centavos.
I turned off map trading all together in my mod.
It's just an exploit to speed up your exploration (which, in my opinion is one of the most fun parts of the game - to discover new lands)
And it's mostly an exploit to abuse the AI out of their money by trading your world map every turn to everyone.

Removing it all together and I feel I'm not missing anything.
 

Theov

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I would be very interested in what you find with this, Theov. I considered doing the same for my own mod. Especially, how this would affect play on high difficulty levels where tech trading is vital to survival.
I put mining with bronze working and irrigation with pottery.
So if you want to beeline to republic, you will have to wait building mines or irrigation. (unless that is a starrting tech)
Also, Ceremonial Burial has a powerful wonder of Stonehenge that feeds culture into every city.

On a gameplay level, I find that you can still trade for the next techs, but you cant easily get the starting techs with it. (Trading Republic for Math AND Ceremonial Burial, for example).
Even though I slingshot Republic, I am still slowed down.
But the AI is also slowed down. Lets see if that is a good thing.
 

tjs282

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I only knew commercial that the commercial flag doesn't reduce the price and is instead used for the pays-trade-maintenance wonder effect. Are there other flags without any effect?
The Industrious-trait-plus-building-flag doesn't give shield-discounts on buildings either (as noted in my post that you responded to here!) ;)

Actually, I'm not sure why the Industrious (or Expansionist) building-flag even exists, since it does nothing at all AFAICT (unless it does encourage the AIs to build their trait-matched buildings with higher priority, even without the shield-discount?). Maybe a holdover from a very early build of the game/Editor, where Industrious (and Exp) did give shield-discounts — before the devs realised that made Factories + Power Plants (and Grans + Ducts?) too easy to build?

(In my mod, I also removed the Agri trait-from Ducts, and removed the ability to Irrigate on Desert. That trait's hardcoded advantages were already OP, it really didn't need any additional boosts!)
I turned off map trading all together in my mod.
I didn't go quite that far, but I did move it all the way up to Satellites (which , since Sputnik orbited the planet before Yuri Gagarin, also swapped tech-tree positions and Wonders/Ship-parts — Apollo Program renamed to "National Space Agency" — with [Manned] Space Flight).
I put mining with bronze working and irrigation with pottery.
Great minds think alike!

I thought of another pretty good argument for making all the first-tier techs non-tradeable: doing so might also 'encourage' the different AIs to go down different secondary branches of the tree, based on what they can currently "see" in their list of researchable techs — rather than tech-swapping madly in the first 50 turns, and then (Every. Last. One of Them) beelining Bronze —> Iron, as they almost inevitably do in the epic game.

(I also made Pottery [= ceramic smelting-vessels] a prereq for Iron Working, and tied the Entertainer and Taxman to Lit and Currency, respectively, so the AI will be forced to use Geeks in the early game, just as the human would anyway)

That might also break the Rep-slingshot at Monarch/Emp (rather than DG, where it is currently broken for me ;) ), because at least one AI may go for Writing that much sooner, leaving the human less leeway to research all 3-4 of [Alph —>] Writing —> CoL —> Phil before one of the AIs grabs Phil for themselves.

Might even be worth applying that principle of "non-tradeable 1st-tier techs" to each new Age...? Not sure if that would add or diminish the value of the Scientific trait for the AI (though it might make it less exploitable by the human).
 
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Theov

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I didn't go quite that far, but I did move it all the way up to Satellites (which , since Sputnik orbited the planet before Yuri Gagarin, also swapped tech-tree positions and Wonders/Ship-parts — Apollo Program renamed to "National Space Agency" — with [Manned] Space Flight).

Great minds think alike!

I thought of another pretty good argument for making all the first-tier techs non-tradeable: doing so might also 'encourage' the different AIs to go down different secondary branches of the tree, based on what they can currently "see" in their list of researchable techs — rather than tech-swapping madly in the first 50 turns, and then (Every. Last. One of Them) beelining Bronze —> Iron, as they almost inevitably do in the epic game.

(I also made Pottery [= ceramic smelting-vessels] a prereq for Iron Working, and tied the Entertainer and Taxman to Lit and Currency, respectively, so the AI will be forced to use Geeks in the early game, just as the human would anyway)

That might also break the Rep-slingshot at Monarch/Emp (rather than DG, where it is currently broken for me ;) ), because at least one AI may go for Writing that much sooner, leaving the human less leeway to research all 3-4 of [Alph —>] Writing —> CoL —> Phil before one of the AIs grabs Phil for themselves.

Might even be worth applying that principle of "non-tradeable 1st-tier techs" to each new Age...? Not sure if that would add or diminish the value of the Scientific trait for the AI (though it might make it less exploitable by the human).
I could turn on map trading far away in the tech tree, but by that time... I hadn't thought about when to bring it back really.

I'm not sure if this 'encouragement' works though. I don't know if Civs that start with Bronze will go for Iron more often than not. Could be, yes could be not.

You bring up an idea to make every first column of a new era non-tradable. Do you go for Monotheism or Engineering now becomes an ever bigger question.
Perhaps even making them more expensive and making Feudalism (which is in between) cheaper.
 

Theov

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Two versions of my current Ancient Era Tech tree.

I'm wondering... is Alphabet too expensive?
 
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AnthonyBoscia

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I put mining with bronze working and irrigation with pottery.
So if you want to beeline to republic, you will have to wait building mines or irrigation. (unless that is a starting tech)
Also, Ceremonial Burial has a powerful wonder of Stonehenge that feeds culture into every city.

On a gameplay level, I find that you can still trade for the next techs, but you cant easily get the starting techs with it. (Trading Republic for Math AND Ceremonial Burial, for example).
Even though I slingshot Republic, I am still slowed down.
But the AI is also slowed down. Lets see if that is a good thing.

Cool. I'm glad to see it is going well so far. I think stopping tech trading early era would be much more effective than stopping trading late era. There are some mods where the tech tree bottlenecks at the end of the era which essentially acts like disabling trading and can really stick the player in a rut. It also helps that your tech tree is still relatively faithful to the original, which means we can see how the AI responds before implementing more radical changes. Thanks for posting.
 

Theov

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Cool. I'm glad to see it is going well so far. I think stopping tech trading early era would be much more effective than stopping trading late era. There are some mods where the tech tree bottlenecks at the end of the era which essentially acts like disabling trading and can really stick the player in a rut. It also helps that your tech tree is still relatively faithful to the original, which means we can see how the AI responds before implementing more radical changes. Thanks for posting.
Yeah, I want my mod to be a lot like the original C3C game, but better.
 

timerover51

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Looking fwd to it.

All the best with your surgery. Wish you a good recovery.
Thank you, Theov. The surgery went well, and now for the first time since I was about 11, some 60 years ago, I am glassless. This does feel a bit funny. I will get back working on the scenario and running some tests now.
 

Theov

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Thank you, Theov. The surgery went well, and now for the first time since I was about 11, some 60 years ago, I am glassless. This does feel a bit funny. I will get back working on the scenario and running some tests now.
Good to hear.
Medical advancements has taken leaps, and they have done it fast.

If you want me to check it out as well, drop me a link. :)
 

Fergei

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I much prefer the first two columns being untradeable over the default. In this thread (https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/early-game-ai-passivity.665887/post-15988865) I learnt you could do that and have kept that as a means of having chariots still being viable by the time all land has effectivelt been settled globally, encouraging a bit more early game aggression once the AI is over its expansion phase passivity. I also made some techs prerequisites for horseman and iron working, again to make chariots and first column UUs have their moment in the sun.

It does appear to slightly increase potential for an AI Civ that is in contact with others, to fall behind. That's the only downside I can think of, but it's not particularly common.

I'd also add I consider it a buff for Expansionist Civs. Any tech the Expansionist Civ learns in a goody hut can give them a tangible edge rather than being traded away quickly and the knowledge shares globally.
 

SayHayKid

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I am trying something similar in my first attempt at a Mod. The first row of techs is untradeable. 8 starting techs, 2 per Civ. The idea is twofold, slow down the early game and give each Civ a little more unique at the start.

  • The Sail - Seafaring
  • Pottery - Agricultural
  • The Wheel - Commercial
  • Warrior Code - Militaristic
  • Mining - Commercial
  • Masonry - Expansionist
  • Writing - Scientific
  • Ritualism - Religous

Spoiler :
ancient.jpg
 
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Theov

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I am trying something similar in my first attempt at a Mod. The first row of techs is untradeable. 8 starting techs, 2 per Civ. The idea is twofold, slow down the early game and give each Civ a little more unique at the start.

  • The Sail - Seafaring
  • Pottery - Agricultural
  • The Wheel - Commercial
  • Warrior Code - Militaristic
  • Mining - Commercial
  • Masonry - Expansionist
  • Writing - Scientific
  • Ritualism - Religous

Starting to look good!
I look fw to trying it when it's finished.
 

Civinator

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  • The Sail - Seafaring
  • Pottery - Agricultural
  • The Wheel - Commercial
  • Warrior Code - Militaristic
  • Mining - Commercial
  • Masonry - Expansionist
  • Writing - Scientific
  • Ritualism - Religous
The industrious trait is missing. Would not be tech Mining fit better for the industrious trait and than something must be added for the commercial trait ? The problem with such a setting can be, that in the early phases of the game all bonuses for production, growth and exploration have a much bigger benefit for a civ than the bonuses for science and warfare.
 

Arexander

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Commercial is there twice, on Wheel and Mining, so I imagine Mining is supposed to be Industrious.
 

SayHayKid

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The industrious trait is missing. Would not be tech Mining fit better for the industrious trait and than something must be added for the commercial trait ? The problem with such a setting can be, that in the early phases of the game all bonuses for production, growth and exploration have a much bigger benefit for a civ than the bonuses for science and warfare.
@Civinator you are correct. Mining is Industrious. It was a typo. Also, I decided to give every Civ the religious trait and remove the religious flag from building improvements. Ritualism will not be a starting tech for any Civs as I have no more slots: two for each trait, one for religion, and for each civ (to allow for civ specific wonders). You might be right about early advantages of some traits. I haven't gotten far enough along to test, yet. Though I am close.

For my mod I have all the new Civs (including trait changes), all of the improvements, religious wonders, civ specific wonders, government wonders, and the ground units all added (both in the biq and graphics). I do want to add some auto-producing SW for specialty units later in the game (marines, commandos, submarines, battleships, etc.). Technically auto-producing battleships is so that the AI doesn't only build those.

I am still trying to figure out the naval units. I think I have the upgrade paths and specific naval units mostly figured out. I am just stuck on naval unit stats, especially A/D values versus bombard values. @Predator145 gave me a lot of good ideas and things to think about in my Best Practices for Improving Naval Combat thread.

I was originally thinking of having unique "attribute" buildings with the "replace others with flag" like in the Worldwide mod as I like Civs, cities, etc. to have a little uniqueness and different experiences for different play throughs. But I am not confident the AI will handle it well without getting stuck in an upgrade loop. Mostly the idea was to increase tax and/or production with buildings tied to resources such as copper mine, coffee plantation, etc. However, after playing Age of Imperialism and CCM I saw the supply shipment features. I started thinking I can adopt those and it will give a similar effect as the "attribute" buildings and maybe also help improve naval aspects of the game as those shipments can be shipped back to the capital.
 

Civinator

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You might be right about early advantages of some traits. I haven't gotten far enough along to test, yet. Though I am close.
Per example, if very early techs cannot be traded, this will become a super-advantage for expansionistic civs, overcoming this barrier very fast by popping up techs (even techs that cannot be traded) from goody huts. Now if two expansionistic civs meet each other, they can exchange masses of techs very quickly even in the very early stages of the game. On the other side, if goody huts are not allowed in the game and the trading of early techs is not allowed, too, the expansionistic civs are loosing their main advantage in the game. The settings in Civ are a very complex theme.

To a minor degree, the problem of overcoming the barrier of not-allowing the trade of very early techs, by popping up techs from goody huts, is a problem for all civs with other traits, too.

However, after playing Age of Imperialism and CCM I saw the supply shipment features. I started thinking I can adopt those and it will give a similar effect as the "attribute" buildings and maybe also help improve naval aspects of the game as those shipments can be shipped back to the capital.
Unfortunately the supply shipments have a similar problem as the buildings with the "replace each other"-flag: The AI handles them not very well. This is why in CCM I gave them only a value of 25 (the same as eliminating a barbarian village).
 
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Theov

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Two comments:
  1. I also find it quite annoying how the AI Civs so "unfairly" utilize Tech swapping, but I think that making more "surgical" selections of which Techs to make untradeable should be different for the overall, desired play balance for each mod (note @Civinator's comments in Post #5.)
  2. I generally hold off on Map Trading until the Second Era, as the AI can go so crazy with them that you might as well play without any Fog of War at all.
Just my dos centavos.
I turned off map trading all together. Its an anti-fun part of the game.

Yeah you can make certain techs untradable, but how do you make that clear when playing the game.
 
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