Nooble Challenge - Domination

[AnaNg]

I've read a lot of the ALC games and other games but my problem was that it was hard to map that to a Noble level game. I thought maybe you all wouldn't mind helping me out with a Domination win - one of the conditions I can't seem to master, at all. (I can't be the only one so maybe this will help others)

Version: Warlords
Level: Noble
Objective: Domination
Leader: George Washington (Charismatic and Expansive, Navy SEAL, Mall, Fishing and Agriculture)
Map: Standard Continents
Speed: Normal

The point of selecting the leaders and settings I did is that I didn't really want the easy Roman/Epic/Pangea thing and Cam_H suggested these.

I get a little health help with the Expansive trait and some happy and some easier promotions from the Charismatic but those are both nice, open-ended ones that are going to just have broad efffects. Though I have to say that actually useful starting techs are nice.

Continents make it a little tougher than just breezing through a Pangea (not like I've been able to do that, exactly, but in theory that would be the case).

So onward:

The details:


The Start:


Hmmm, yeah, glad I have that fishing and agriculture. Well, at least it gets me closer to researching AH.

The first thing, obviously, is the settle in place or move question. I have this... thing about settling on hills. Generally if possible that's what i go for but I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing. Move the warrior to the hill 1 SE and see what's on the other side? Move him 1 SW and see what I'd be missing if I moved to that hill directly east of the settler? Or just call it good, settle in place and start the $#%@ game already?

Worker first is generally how I go and with that terrain it seems like AH should be the first tech. Then beeline Mining/BW to start improving those hills and find me some copper unless there's other considerations I'm missing.

Couple of general questions - are there any wonders I'm going to want to be building? Or no wonders, just capture them.

 

[RandomLeader]

I would consider Great Wall if you get access to stone. You have nice hills (unfortunately there is no plains hills, but those will do just fine.

So hopefully you get stone and in that point you'll have 2 cities, 2-3 workers and masonry researched.

Disclaimer.. if you get bronze you don't need GW. Instead you just pump out axemans and let it ride when you see somebody. They also destroy barbarians quite well.

If you have luck (not needed if getting basic things you need), you could make GW and stonehenge after that. That way you get chance to for great engineer to build pyramids and that gives you early representation for happiness. Main thing is that you don't do it with expanse of military. Other city will have to do military all the time if building wonders.

AH seems to be tech you want first. I would't mind mining beeing the second followed by BW. You really can't tell what you need after that but masonry, mysticism and pottery will come soon. Of course.. especially if you discover horses from AH wheel comes very important and you'll won't have to build any single warrior. You can immideatly build something usefull.

My first move would be moving warrior 1NE and setling. You'll know more after that.

EDIT: I think for domination it would be usefull to get early war going. So after bronze, horses(?), wheel you will need CoL. Getting distant cities is expensive. That would mean also no wonders. But.. if you do get lucky and grap GW for engineer, SH for more GP points, you could get those pyramids. Happiness is also needed when going to war. It all depends the terrain and surrounding possible resources.

 

[SickCycle]

I don't like picking starting locations and generally just sit it down where I got it lol but I'd move the warrior 1SE and then see whats around before settling you have alot of hills so you may be interested in an extra food resource or something. I think it's a decent location tho, but your gonna need like windmills to work all those hills or a bunch of farms and I like to cottage my capitals for the commerce.

You did make the post about struggling right? It may not be the best idea to move your settler around just yet, it sets you back founding your capital which can lose you wonders or whatever.

I'd go with a different leader too lol like .. Shaka

 

[vicawoo]

It's a very nice start with lots of hills. I wouldn't worry too much about food, since sheep is +2, you have 2 from your capital, and you can build a farm if you need to. George Washington can grow large cities with his double bonus.

Warrior 1 NE or 1 NW. 1N will have vision blocked by the hills. When you settle, you'll vision of the tiles, so go for the hills.

I see no calendar resources, so I'd prioritize early stonehenge somewhere, even if it delays axe rushing a little (like it matters on noble).

So your opening, you can either go animal husbandry first or beeline to bronze working. Going straight bronze working means you're going worker-worker settler, which is a strong rapid expansion build, allowing you to get out your 2nd and 3rd settler out very fast (through improving and chopping). Washington's advantage there is that he gets the +50% bonus, your worker builds a mine first for production of 1 (food) + 4*1.5 = 7 per turn (pasture will give 4 food, 2 production, for 7 per turn) and you don't have to worry so much about saving your forests. And you have a nearby river hill, so that'll shave down slavery research time quite a bit.

The advantage of animal husbandry is that you can grow. If there's a hidden farm resource (somewhat likely due to the map generator not giving you flood plains), I'd skip animal husbandry, but for now assume it's your food resource. You can use it to whip and grow, and put the production while growing in, say, stonehenge. This saves trees, and a high food source (4 means 8 turns to grow, gaining 8*2=16 production on stonehenge/whatever, losing 8*4 = 32 production on settlers but gaining 30 from the whip, or 8*7=56 production on workers but gaining 45) means little loss. So you're a bit on the low end unless you find a corn, FYI.

I'm of the opinion of mining first, and a bit split on animal husbandry or bronze working. And you may need the wheel to hook up bronze.

 

[AnaNg]

I see no calendar resources, so I'd prioritize early stonehenge somewhere, even if it delays axe rushing a little (like it matters on noble).

Hey hey now! No disparaging Noble level!

The rest of your info was good though.

Sick, like you I tend to settle in place or on a nearby hill. But there's always so much brouhaha over starting locs that I felt like I was doing something wrong if I just stayed where I was.

And yeah, I struggle on my warmonger games. Which is why I'm here! As for a different leader - well, maybe you're right. On the one hand I sort of wanted to try a dom game without an aggressive leader, on the other hand, happy and heathly may make it a bit easier for me down the road. I think I'll stick with what I got and see how it goes.

I think it's a decent location tho, but your gonna need like windmills to work all those hills or a bunch of farms and I like to cottage my capitals for the commerce.

Me too but... eh, I can always build a palace somewhere else.

If you have luck (not needed if getting basic things you need), you could make GW and stonehenge after that. That way you get chance to for great engineer to build pyramids and that gives you early representation for happiness. Main thing is that you don't do it with expanse of military. Other city will have to do military all the time if building wonders.

From someone who doesn't mind a nice wonder, this seems like an awful lot of wonders. SH I can see as it will help with border pops on new and captured cities. GW seems sort of counter productive if I'm going for Dom. Barbs provide nice experience for my units and really, if I'm not producing enough units to deal with the barbs then I'm sort of approaching this VC all wrong then, aren't I? I see what you're saying about Pyr and the happy but hopefully my charismatic trait will help with that until I can capture them (or, if they're on the other continent, research something else that will offset) plus don't I get an extra happy from Monuments? Hmm, maybe SH isn't a great idea if there are Calendar resources nearby that I'll want sooner than later.

I'm leaning towards Mining/BW first and going worker-worker etc for the city build. There's a ton of stuff to work around that region, though admittedly not much food but I can always farm something and pave over it later.

 

[futurehermit]

Good idea and good settings. Settle in place. Start with anhusb. Worker first.

Looks like your capital will be a production monster--a good thing when going domination.

Try and find your closest neighbour to see if you will be able to rush or not. That will determine how things play out in the first while. If you are isolated, it could be an interesting game...(still possible!)

 

[RandomLeader]

From someone who doesn't mind a nice wonder, this seems like an awful lot of wonders. SH I can see as it will help with border pops on new and captured cities. GW seems sort of counter productive if I'm going for Dom. Barbs provide nice experience for my units and really, if I'm not producing enough units to deal with the barbs then I'm sort of approaching this VC all wrong then, aren't I? I see what you're saying about Pyr and the happy but hopefully my charismatic trait will help with that until I can capture them (or, if they're on the other continent, research something else that will offset) plus don't I get an extra happy from Monuments? Hmm, maybe SH isn't a great idea if there are Calendar resources nearby that I'll want sooner than later.

Like I said, it depends. If you get stone you could try that (after building/chopping/whipping) few workers and settler. Rushbuilding GW for engineer points and stonehenge little slower for gppoints (to get that engineer if wanting pyramids for happiness). These would require that stone. And because it depends.. if you get other happiness resourcess that's even better.

You got me all wrong.. that upper part was just one way to go, and you would still get early axe rush needed. You can't conquer too match before CoL anyway so early axerush don't have to be to fast. At least I manage with axerush by building axes with my second city. That is of course depending on terrain. And like I said.. you can just build axes and let it ride. Whatever you want

 

[AnaNg]

Good idea and good settings. Settle in place. Start with anhusb. Worker first.

Looks like your capital will be a production monster--a good thing when going domination.

Yeah, I'm actually quite tickled about my start despite not being on a coast with corn, clams and fish. Eh, what are you going to do. Flood plains and such are GREAT but to have your most developed city be the, as you said, production monster? Oh yeah. I can always rebuild the palace at someplace more balanced prod/commerce by the time I get bureaucracy.

Why AH first? I mean, besides the obvious take advantage of the animals. I can farm the river, growth isn't really an issue if I worker-worker, or do you mean I'll get more bang for my buck worker-worker with the pasture because of the hammer/food thing?

If I don't worker-worker, I worker... what? Barracks? Warrior?

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Settle in place. Build a worker first. You'll want to tech agriculture and animal husbandry first off, then bronze working. You'll need to farm the flat land next to the rivers in order to work the hills. Looks like a no-cottage capital unless there is a food special in the fog.

You'll be looking to expand south since the trees to the north have snow on them so it will be tundra up there.

I don't know what your starting techs are though. Hopefully mining...

EDIT: I see you have fishing and agriculture techs. You probably want mining first then and build a farm where the hut is.

 

[AnaNg]

You can't conquer too match before CoL anyway so early axerush don't have to be to fast.

Really? Maybe this is where I'm going wrong with this strat. I usually get 2-3 (often settle the 3rd in war) cities and then go to war if I'm about an early rush.

1 of the first two is often cottaged fairly well (not like I'm going to cottage everything with a pop cap of 8 or so) and the second may have some depending on terrain and whatnot.

Should I be waiting for CoL to war? That seems like an awfully long way to wait. Or are you saying that anything more than say, one civs cap city and maybe a well-placed second one is about as far as I can go without CoL?

Actually this will be interesting - I love the production capabilities of my first city but I'm going to need some finances for war. Hopefully my trusty scouting warrior will find both resources and flood plains for me.

EDIT: I see you have fishing and agriculture techs. You probably want mining first then and build a farm where the hut is.

So Mining, AH then BW?

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I'd go mining first, then depending upon whether there is a farmable resource go either AH (no farmable resource) or BW (farmable resource).

 

[KMadCandy]

here's what i think about the wondermongering part ... keep in mind that i am the world's worst warmonger.

stonehenge is awesome if you're charismatic. the border pops without needing drama/music or caste are priceless, and the raised happy cap will help your whipping frenzy. SH maximizes the "+1 happy from monument" part of charismatic, since that part expires at calendar. so handbuilding them rather than SH freebies gives no benefit, it just wastes hammers and time. and of the 3 wonders you talked about, it expires. it's extremely useful while it's there, but the lifespan is limited. some would say that means don't build it, capture it. i lean to "it's very cheap in hammers, you benefit a lot more if you build it than if you wait around to capture it". and that assumes it's even near enough to capture before it obsoletes.

"GW seems sort of counter productive if I'm going for Dom. Barbs provide nice experience for my units and really, if I'm not producing enough units to deal with the barbs then I'm sort of approaching this VC all wrong then, aren't I?"

wellllllllllllll ... sort of. but in my rationalization, the great wall mean the hammers you invest in units from that point on can be directed purely at the bad guys, making barbs not an annoyance. definitely true for conquer, i can't go for conquer without GWall. it's just such a nightmare as the barb-spawning points pop back up and they have fewer targets left to pick on. the extra GGs that it gives are nice too, no reason to give those to the bad guys. so if you do let somebody else build that one to capture it, note what city it's in and try to go for that city early during your war with him.

pyramids, yeah, capture 'em. good luck, have fun!

 

[AnaNg]

Oh Civ, you are a cruel, cruel mistress.

I played a bit as there seemed to be little point in debating start pos and techs - pretty straightforward. I intended to post on Cam's schedule but it's 2760 BC and I discovered this:



Yep all by my lonesome. It got cut off on the screenshot but there's a little land mass/tiny island/tip of a continent off to my south that is accessible via galley so I'll have to see who's down there, if anyone. Could just be a tease island.

Nice that I scored sailing out of a hut! So I'm thinking I need to get a coastal city up asap to see who else is around. Below is a (likely poor) attempt at a dot map. I just realized I don't get the copper in a city radius... Guess I should go look at that again.

Spoiler :

My research path was AH/Mining/BW and I'm partway through the wheel right now. An early axe rush looks out - even if I find someone there's axes AND galleys to build just to get to them not to mention quite a ways to walk/sail.

The more I think about it, even though copper is by city #1 on my crappy dot map, city #2 seems like a better choice - it's closer and can be more quickly set up and cottaged to get that rolling since anyone I find to kill is going to be painfully expensive to keep, even if it's just the cap city.

Maybe IW should be close up just to see what I have in that department. Or should I be going for CoL as fast as possible as, well, it's clear anything I take over is going to be just downright spendy.

 

[DaveMcW]

#4 is a horrible, horrible location. I would move it to the coast to get the cow (and even coast is better than tundra).

The clam and fish cities must be on the coast.

 

[AnaNg]

#4 is a horrible, horrible location. I would move it to the coast to get the cow (and even coast is better than tundra).

Yeah, I know, I don't really like it either but there are 2 silvers up there and I figured one crappy city grabs em both and I'm done with it - guess I could just wait for border pops to snag it...

The clam and fish cities must be on the coast.

OK so better to have a couple of tiny tile cities to get coast and lighthouse than one that grabs the resource but no lighthouse? (It's not like I can't send a workboat from another city to work the tile and it's just one so only one slice o bread from LH unless, again, lots of overlap on bad terrain or generall missing of inland resources.)

 

[SickCycle]

Just REX and prioritize sailing/astronomy..

 

[Cer]

I haven't found lighthouse cities to be very useful. I have tried a number of coastal commerce/lighthouse cities and I consider a grassland cottage to be substantially better than a lighthouse/water tile. Depending on the location, a lighthouse city can turn out to be very production poor. If it is, you'll have a heck of a time getting bank+library+market early on, and university later. Strong-production coastal cities that have lots of land tiles are very useful, though. With those, I will often build cottages and commerce-boost buildings, and then whenever I need to pump out naval units I switch to those.

 

[RandomLeader]

Should I be waiting for CoL to war? That seems like an awfully long way to wait. Or are you saying that anything more than say, one civs cap city and maybe a well-placed second one is about as far as I can go without CoL?

No you shouldn't but with that start you have to

Usually I build 2 cities and start troop production. That is if somebody is close. Then I don't like to invest hammers to settlers because I want to have my cities from AI. You can have something like 4-5 cities before CoL and you still will notice that in your research slider. Timing would be something like "when you get your 6-7 city, CoL should be finished. Pillaging helps little. Well.. research can go down to 10-20 but it will comeback when you build courthouses. If you don't anticipate this, you will go broke. Its not nice that you have earned lots of land and population just to fall greatly behind in tech and get your troops to strike. Maybe you can just take 2-3 city from AI and burn the others.

But I will leave you to the hands of experts and simply follow how it goes. Considering your objective I would restart the game.

 

[Leventis]

City #5 needs to be moved east to grab the fish; same deal if you want the clams, but don't settle that junk magenta town anyway. Make sure the first 2 or 3 cities you plonk down are going to be good longterm ones--i.e. prioritize a few really solid cities rather than build a heap of mediocre ones. That teal one in the centre looks good, the copper rice is another.

You should have 5 or 6 cities up in no time, beeline to CoL, and then to astronomy later on obviously. Don't forget about troops either. If you play your cards right you won't be left behind tech wise on Noble, though domination will be a challenge GL.

 

[KMadCandy]

about coastal cities: you're out to dominate the world, but the bad guys live across the water. you're going to need cities on the coast to make ships to do that. yeah you have a several marked, i'm just nagging you that it's not just about the food from lighthouses/health from harbors.

Yeah, I know, I don't really like it either but there are 2 silvers up there and I figured one crappy city grabs em both and I'm done with it - guess I could just wait for border pops to snag it...

well the yummy goodness of the silver tile itself is the commerce on it if you work it. if that city doesn't have enough food to work both (doesn't look to me like it does), then there's no point to having them both in a city. in your culture borders is just as good if you're not going to work it, and you're just getting the luxury benefit.

then again, if i was out to conquer the world and got an isolated start, i'd restart. so what do i know? *giggle*