1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

North American Civilisations

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by SMcM, Sep 10, 2016.

  1. SMcM

    SMcM Emperor

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2016
    Messages:
    1,194
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    London, England
    What North American civilisations do people want from DLC/ expansions, and why? And which leaders do people think would be the best choices for them?

    A map showing modern territory of native American nations:
    Spoiler :


    A rough map of the regions historically inhabited by different tribal groups:
    I'm sure Sioux would be a popular choice, but Firaxis also has the option of debuting a new Civilisation. I think the Apache would be interesting to see, and they are also a very iconic people, and the Navajo are notable today for being by far the largest North American tribal nation.

    Off course there are always people suggesting much older American civiliations such as the Mississipian mound-building culture, and that would be very cool, but these in many cases I would argue we do not necessarily have enough known about them (Firaxis could always invent leaders though).

    More colonial and post-colonial civilisations could be interesting, but I imagine that with all the upset about the already strong Western-centrism, adding Canada, Quebec, New Netherlands, etc. would not be too popular with a lot of people.
     
  2. Thorburne

    Thorburne Centurion

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2005
    Messages:
    1,449
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Carney, MD
    Wasn't there a tribe that they wanted to do for Civ V before settling on the Shoshone? I can't remember if it was the Navajo or the Pueblo... The reason that they couldn't use them was because the elders of the tribe denied them because of spiritual reasons...

    Sent from my LG-H345 using Tapatalk
     
  3. nunor

    nunor King

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2010
    Messages:
    776
    As I said in another thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=573693), I'd like to see the Mississipians -- we know just enough about them to have a very interesting religious civ.

    It was the Pueblo. They have something against being photographed/filmed and didn't want Firaxis' choice for leader Pope (which is close to a divinized figure) to be represented in a videogame. Not sure they understood exactly what that was about, but they probably decided to err on the side of caution.

    But Firaxis could still find another leader to represent them, though.
     
  4. Mobfire

    Mobfire Chillin' out maxin' relaxin' all cool

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2016
    Messages:
    341
    Location:
    Canada
    A better map: http://nativesofnorthamerica.org/

    Many of the nations represented on the map are not shown by their european names, and many of them could be grouped together (Santee, Yanktonai, Teton, Yankton, and possibly Ponca could be represented as the Sioux).

    Some of my favorite tribes/prospective civs include the Haida or Coast Salish to represent the pacific northwest, Sioux to represent the great plains, Iroquois to represent the great lakes and woodlands, Apache to represent the desert, Mississippians and/or Anasazi to represent Pre-Columbian civilizations, and possibly the Inuit or Cree.
     
  5. SMcM

    SMcM Emperor

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2016
    Messages:
    1,194
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    London, England
    Pueblo could be a good choice as well. But if Popé cannot be in the game, then they may as well go for another tribe, unless there are other Pueblo leader as significant to them as he is.

    I think that several of the civs from Colonization would be good choices (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/colonization/leaders).

    Spoiler :


    The Paiute under Sarah Winnemucca seems like the sort of Civ firaxis would consider. She was not actually a leader of the Paiute (though she came from an influential family), but was an important advocate of the rights of native Americans.



    As does the Ute under Chipeta, who led her people following the death of her husband the chief.

    Spoiler :
     
  6. TPangolin

    TPangolin Just the worst person

    Joined:
    May 23, 2013
    Messages:
    4,029
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Our mentality when it comes to creating Native Northern American civs when it comes to mods - is to make them stand on their own as a distinct cultural entity that can hold it's own in terms of legitimacy and worth when put alongside the greats like England and Russia. Every culture has a story worth telling, so it's one of the jobs of the civ design to tell us why this story is worth telling and what lessons we can learn from it.

    So I guess to answer your question OP - I'd love to see any group within North America - as long as it is designed with effort, poise and care. When we design our Civ mods, especially when we cover indigenous peoples - we don't just click on wikipedia, skim through and slap a new coat of paint on something that already exists in the base-game or a scenario. We do a ridiculously large amount of research to make sure that we're being as representative as possible. In no way is it about being PC, or inoffensive - it's about coming to terms with the fact that it is absolutely, 100% intellectually dishonest to say that many of the populous, and often extremely complex and diverse indigenous cultures cannot be designed without resorting to straight up stereotypes.

    That's our mentality when it comes to focusing on Northern American civs anyway - and it's not difficult the effort in and create something that isn't straight up reductionistic like the homogenous Native American civ in Civ IV.

    For that reason, I think that any of the following civs work extremely well as a proof of concept as to what Firaxis could include justifiably:


    The point that I'm trying to get across is this - if a bunch of unpaid modders can create culturally distinct and conceptually amazing, yet fitting civilization abilities that is a) representative and b) thought out - then imagine what you can do with a budget and a few hours of research!

    I doubt that this will change much in the grand scheme of things - but if anyone at Firaxis ever reads this - please know that the demand is absolutely there. Look at the metrics when it comes to these mods. 50K People are actively subscribed to the Inuit, 28K for the Blackfoot, 22K for the Cree, 25K for the Dene, 44K for the Sioux (and this is just a random selection of the mods I listed here). In terms of downloads in comparison to other mods on the Steam Workshop - these numbers are insane. People are legitimately interested in these cultures, especially when they're presented right and it's high time we pay respect to these amazing cultures by using your immense power to tell a story that is worth telling on every conceivable level.

    Never let the notion of "I haven't heard about this, neither has the majority - this probably wont sell well" get you down to the point where you're using it as an excuse. Because we all know in our hearts how fundamentally intellectually dishonest it is to say that it's a nigh impossible task to come up with something that would fit into one of these games seamlessly.
     
  7. jsciv69

    jsciv69 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2016
    Messages:
    185
    Location:
    Earth
    Here's my short list

    Souix-Sitting Bull. The Souis are known for their hunting and warrior like culture. The Great Souix Nation consists of three divisions called Dakota, Lakota, and Nakota. The Souix traded with the French, Allied with the Cheyenne, Fought many battles with the US Govt. Won measures of victory vs the US Army in the Red Cloud's War, Helped the Cheyenne defeat Gen. Custer at Battle of Little Big Horn.

    Arapaho- Little Raven The Arapaho was an expansive agricultural nation. They traded and fought with and against many tribal and other entities. They were closely allied with the Cheyenne.

    Cheyenne- Black Kettle Horse and warrior culture. Comprised of a vast area at their peak. Known well for their defeat of Gen. Custer at Little Big Horn.

    Cherokee-Dragging Canoe

    Nez Perce-Chief Joseph
     
  8. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

    Joined:
    May 14, 2016
    Messages:
    6,178
    Location:
    Terok Nor
    I might be alone on this, but I really do not want to see the Sioux. Yes, they were (briefly) important after the Iroquois drove them out of their homelands, but they're also heavily overrepresented in the media to the point that many Americans at least seem to think that all Native Americans are Sioux. I'd like to see some other tribes get representation. My personal preference would be at least three of the following (in order of preference):

    Tlingit - Chief Sheiyksh I
    Cree - Big Bear
    Muscogee (Creek) Confederacy - Menawa
    Navajo - Manuelito

    The return of the Iroquois, ideally under a historical leader like Joseph Brant, would not be unwelcome, however, and I wouldn't object to seeing the Cherokee under Dragging Canoe in place of the Muscogee. The Chickasaw under Tishomingo would be another interesting option for a Southeastern Native American nation.
     
  9. TPangolin

    TPangolin Just the worst person

    Joined:
    May 23, 2013
    Messages:
    4,029
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    @Zaarin - We're going to be designing a Cree mod for Civ VI, and have started some aspects of pre-production (it's probably going to be the first NA civ that we cover). That being said, what makes you choose Big Bear for the leader? For V we chose Poundmaker, and whether or not that was the perfect choice is of course up for debate - but I'm still very happy with the way we represented the Cree.

    There's also Piapot to consider alongside Poundmaker and Big Bear.

    The only reason I ask is because I've seen you seem to have a predilection/interest towards NA cultures and I thought you might have some insight that we might not.

    I do agree though that a PNW civ desperately needs to be included with the tools and assets that Firaxis has. We did the Tlingit under Sheiyksh I in V, are definitely planning it in our lineup for VI.
     
  10. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

    Joined:
    May 14, 2016
    Messages:
    6,178
    Location:
    Terok Nor
    To be honest, I'm more familiar with the people of the PNW/Plateau and the Eastern Woodlands than I am the Plains and Subarctic, so I don't know the Cree history quite as well. Big Bear stood out to me as an interesting individual (he survived smallpox, he was both a shaman and a warrior, and he was said to be a compelling leader), but I could see Poundmaker and Piapot both being good choices as well.
     
  11. TPangolin

    TPangolin Just the worst person

    Joined:
    May 23, 2013
    Messages:
    4,029
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Is there also anything you'd like to see in particular from a PNW civ?
     
  12. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

    Joined:
    May 14, 2016
    Messages:
    6,178
    Location:
    Terok Nor
    Lots, as that's the region I've studied more than any other. For one thing, a lot of people are tossing around the Salish or the Chinook, but I think the PNW should be represented by one of the Northern PNW cultures: the Tlingit, the Haida, the Tsimshian, or the Kwakwaka'wakw (who are really a Middle PNW culture, but...). Since the Tlingit, Haida, and Tsimshian have a lot in common, I think the following model could work for any of them:

    Unique Ability: Potlatch: Gain faith, culture, and gold each time you expend a Great Person; copper yields +1 :c5culture:
    Lead Unique Ability: Depends on leader (maybe something related to trade, religion, or warfare)
    Unique Unit: Haida War Canoe (they were made by the Haida, but they were traded throughout the PNW)
    Unique Infrastructure: Crest Pole: Grants :c5faith: and :c5culture:
    OR
    Unique Infrastructure: Kwaan / Kaigani / (I don't know the Tsimshian term) (early neighborhood like Kongo's, grants :c5faith: and :c5culture:, does not destroy forest, must be built next to coast, grants an additional trade route?)
     
  13. ehecatzin

    ehecatzin Emperor

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2007
    Messages:
    1,324
    I'll say that: "poorly known group" tag on the map bothers me a bit, considering the Mixton war, and the Chichimec war involve precisely those groups in the area.

    Spoiler :


    Also while we are at it, a Chichimec civ led by Tenamaxtle would actually make sense, seeing as he did unite a lot of tribes under him to resist the Spanish advance into Northern Mexico.
     
  14. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2011
    Messages:
    5,474
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    New York City
    What language would he speak? Most of the Chichimeca languages are unattested.
     
  15. ehecatzin

    ehecatzin Emperor

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2007
    Messages:
    1,324
    Not all of them, Otomi for example is alive and well, and the aftermath of the mixton war and the scattering of many of the original tribes probably has ties to today's Wixarika, and Cora peoples.

    BUT, if Tenamaxtle was the hyphotetical leader it wouldn't be as much of a problem, as Nahuatl was widespread in western Mexico as well (remember the Aztecs were just one of a massive nahuatl migration south).

    The Caxcan, the original instigators of the rebellion, would have been nahuatl speakers, (and their rulers called themselves Tlatoanis as well) albeit a variation from the one spoken on central Mexico. Unfortunedly the specific variation is practically extint. But common Nahuatl should be close enough for Tenamaxtle.

    That is of course if they went with Tenamaxtle, if we are talking about the Chichimecs after the Mixton war (without Caxcans) then it does get trickier.

    EDIT: I mixed up a bit, the Tecuexes are the ones that spoke a regional variation of Nahuatl (in what would be now Jalisco), Caxcans would have been closer to Tepehuan or Wixarika, but the point still stands that they are spoken languages today, should Firaxis ever want to do a chichimec civ they should only need to contact the INAH to find a speaker, they do have a lot of programs to keep indigenous language alive and kicking.
     
  16. Ebrim

    Ebrim Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2016
    Messages:
    149
    Location:
    Chicago
    My top contenders are for Mississippians (it would be new and it's really the best thing NA has going for urban civilizations north of the Aztecs) and the Iroquois. The latter because I think with governments back in CivVI you could do some interesting things there.
     

Share This Page