Not as much of a joke as it will sound at the first glance...

[Somebody613]

But have you guys ever attempted to discuss your mod with the official stuff of Civ?
Maybe Sid Meyer in person, even?
Because I can't see anything beyond blind stubbornness being a reason for him/them to NOT get interested in your iteration of Civ.
It's bigger, wider, deeper, longer - and all of that while still limited by an ancient program resource as well.
Give it a x64 volume and speed (and hence unit graphics quality as well), give it an actual official spin-off game right of its own - and I bet it'd sell 9000 times better than ANY OTHER Civ game EVER.
I have absolutely NO IDEA why he/them hasn't approached your team yet all on his/their own, really.
It's like they literally stopped caring about their product QUALITY whatsoever, because I don't buy that he/they don't KNOW about this mod.
And for all its limitations and "out-dated background", it's still one of THE BEST mods for ANY CIv.
It's essentially the closest to "play the WORLD" that any Civ has ever reached.
And while Rhye's was closer to reality in the immediate geopolitical sense (interactive city names and locations, lol), C2C's historical scope alone beats it in Godzilla spades anyways.
And you can always ADD that part as well, simply by making a Real Earth map that DOES track your cities.
While it's problematic NOW under THIS engine - it'd be muuuch less so under an actual x64 engine.
I'd be so bold as to even assume that a real x64 engine can accommodate for way MORE than just 40 civs as well (maybe even as many as "everyone out there in the real world") - since you'd able to use ANY amount of memory under a modern engine.
Sure, all of this is, FOR NOW, a mere ranting dream of a random fan - but HAVE YOU TRIED TALKING TO THEM???
Seriously, HAVE YOU???
Note: Of course, if you HAD - and got REJECTED, well, nothing can be done THEN.
But HAVE YOU?
Sorry for being so overbearing - but it'd be a dream come true for a TON of fans.

 

[Thunderbrd]

SO has written Firaxis on a few occasions I believe.

We have had numerous talks and constantly flirt with the idea of doing something along the lines of the mod from scratch perhaps. I'm currently in a 'let's see how far we can get with this old beast' mode of thinking for the most part but its certainly a laboratory for applying numerous concepts and improvements.

 

[Joij21]

But have you guys ever attempted to discuss your mod with the official stuff of Civ?
Maybe Sid Meyer in person, even?
Because I can't see anything beyond blind stubbornness being a reason for him/them to NOT get interested in your iteration of Civ.
It's bigger, wider, deeper, longer - and all of that while still limited by an ancient program resource as well.
Give it a x64 volume and speed (and hence unit graphics quality as well), give it an actual official spin-off game right of its own - and I bet it'd sell 9000 times better than ANY OTHER Civ game EVER.
I have absolutely NO IDEA why he/them hasn't approached your team yet all on his/their own, really.
It's like they literally stopped caring about their product QUALITY whatsoever, because I don't buy that he/they don't KNOW about this mod.
And for all its limitations and "out-dated background", it's still one of THE BEST mods for ANY CIv.
It's essentially the closest to "play the WORLD" that any Civ has ever reached.
And while Rhye's was closer to reality in the immediate geopolitical sense (interactive city names and locations, lol), C2C's historical scope alone beats it in Godzilla spades anyways.
And you can always ADD that part as well, simply by making a Real Earth map that DOES track your cities.
While it's problematic NOW under THIS engine - it'd be muuuch less so under an actual x64 engine.
I'd be so bold as to even assume that a real x64 engine can accommodate for way MORE than just 40 civs as well (maybe even as many as "everyone out there in the real world") - since you'd able to use ANY amount of memory under a modern engine.
Sure, all of this is, FOR NOW, a mere ranting dream of a random fan - but HAVE YOU TRIED TALKING TO THEM???
Seriously, HAVE YOU???
Note: Of course, if you HAD - and got REJECTED, well, nothing can be done THEN.
But HAVE YOU?
Sorry for being so overbearing - but it'd be a dream come true for a TON of fans.

Umm because of the money. If Firaxis were to release a game that is more or less C2C on a modern game engine, then it would be the civ to end all civs. The consumer would have everything they could ever desire from a civ game ever and would never have to buy another installment ever, simply because it is too good. That means they could only profit once on the product despite it selling well. After everyone has it, it becomes like a car where unless it breaks down you can go a long time without needing a brand new one.

Therefore it is much more profitable to chop up all the features of a game and release them over different sequel installments of the series and paid DLC. After all civ is the backbone of Firaxis' profits, and with Sid Mier getting old he probably wants the series to at least continue for another decade to have enough money for his retirement. We see this trend in a lot of modern gaming companies its kind of the norm by now.

Secondly, it has to due to the fact that modern companies prefer to cater to the much larger "casual gamer" market. Many of the features in C2C are complex and not easy to get into, often requiring multiple playthroughs to get the hang of. Casual gamers don't like complex learning curves and usually want to play instantly with a good grasp as they go. Thus making such a game would be a "power gamer" styled one. Power gamers exist in far less numbers than casuals and so a rise in price would be required to profit. However a lot of power gamers tend to be a.s.s.h.o.l.e.s. and so a rise in price would tend to push many away, decreasing sales even further. It is for this reason many games are often time dumbed down and simplified.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Umm because of the money. If Firaxis were to release a game that is more or less C2C on a modern game engine, then it would be the civ to end all civs. The consumer would have everything they could ever desire from a civ game ever and would never have to buy another installment ever, simply because it is too good. That means they could only profit once on the product despite it selling well. After everyone has it, it becomes like a car where unless it breaks down you can go a long time without needing a brand new one.

Therefore it is much more profitable to chop up all the features of a game and release them over different sequel installments of the series and paid DLC. After all civ is the backbone of Firaxis' profits, and with Sid Mier getting old he probably wants the series to at least continue for another decade to have enough money for his retirement. We see this trend in a lot of modern gaming companies its kind of the norm by now.

Secondly, it has to due to the fact that modern companies prefer to cater to the much larger "casual gamer" market. Many of the features in C2C are complex and not easy to get into, often requiring multiple playthroughs to get the hang of. Casual gamers don't like complex learning curves and usually want to play instantly with a good grasp as they go. Thus making such a game would be a "power gamer" styled one. Power gamers exist in far less numbers than casuals and so a rise in price would be required to profit. However a lot of power gamers tend to be a.s.s.h.o.l.e.s. and so a rise in price would tend to push many away, decreasing sales even further. It is for this reason many games are often time dumbed down and simplified.

We do cater to a wider audience through the use of options, though ironically it takes some dedication to sort through them all.

I've always liked the idea of making the game more inexpensive subscription based so it can just keep being developed and evolving as it goes so it's not a dead end for players or development alike but doesn't need to keep being completely revamped into new versions from the ground up.

 

[Joij21]

I've always liked the idea of making the game more inexpensive subscription based so it can just keep being developed and evolving as it goes so it's not a dead end for players or development alike but doesn't need to keep being completely revamped into new versions from the ground up.

I believe World of Warcraft is currently the most popular subscription based game. At least it has been for a while. But the problem is would such a system appeal to the TBS genre? So far it has only been done with MMORPGs and has worked with those kinds of people who like the RPG genre. However do you think those who play the strategy genre would want such a system? Especially since it has never been used(as far as I know) beyond RPGs.

Then we also have the problem of when would it be finished? I think an RPG works better because after each update they can add new quests and storyline arcs, but what would you do with a TBS? Personally I believe after a while people might just end up frustrated that the game keeps updating but never gets truly finished. As a TBS I think most players would expect for that particular genre to at least be completed on release. I mean a TBS wouldn't add storylines or anything like it but rather new "core" features that people would expect to have from the beginning. Therefore that's why I personally believe developers choose to go for more "from the ground up" releases and DLC rather than a subscription based system for fear of the backlash. And as we all too much know, gamers don't exactly have the best most civil attitude when it comes to game releases and payment plans.

 

[irishhombre]

The other problem with subscription based games, is that they tend to turn into pay to win games. For those of us who are perpetually broke, that is major issue. The good thing about DLC is that usually after a while you get collections and sales.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I feel that if the sub offered a great platform for regular MP play and the game does continue to add not only layers of interest but also farther potential progression, it would be worthwhile. Pay to win would royally suck so I wouldn't want to see it turn into that at all. And again, INexpensive. Like maybe $5-10 a month. I mean right now consider how many people are making $ on that on pretty much a donation basis from numerous contributors online through Patreon, usually for doing something similar, producing some form of art. Numerous game projects are being funded in such a way without the funders even getting to play until it IS a pretty much complete project. I think there's maybe too much expectation of 'complete' and that's one reason why so many pretty much terrible games are going to market and needing patch after patch to debug still. No good game is really ever complete nor has no further room for development, so it may as well just embrace that aspect. Folks don't have to keep their accounts active at all times. They can activate when they are 'into' the game and playing it. If the devs can keep things growing ever more interesting, it should constantly draw people back and after a while grow a HUGE player base over time.

I think this will be a model for the future. Particularly if the plans for development can be well promoted in the whole process, along with giving the subscribers a platform for promoting where they want to see more growth. There's a lot of big corporate software packages working a lot like this right now as well.

 

[Joij21]

I feel that if the sub offered a great platform for regular MP play and the game does continue to add not only layers of interest but also farther potential progression, it would be worthwhile. Pay to win would royally suck so I wouldn't want to see it turn into that at all. And again, INexpensive. Like maybe $5-10 a month. I mean right now consider how many people are making $ on that on pretty much a donation basis from numerous contributors online through Patreon, usually for doing something similar, producing some form of art. Numerous game projects are being funded in such a way without the funders even getting to play until it IS a pretty much complete project. I think there's maybe too much expectation of 'complete' and that's one reason why so many pretty much terrible games are going to market and needing patch after patch to debug still. No good game is really ever complete nor has no further room for development, so it may as well just embrace that aspect. Folks don't have to keep their accounts active at all times. They can activate when they are 'into' the game and playing it. If the devs can keep things growing ever more interesting, it should constantly draw people back and after a while grow a HUGE player base over time.

I think this will be a model for the future. Particularly if the plans for development can be well promoted in the whole process, along with giving the subscribers a platform for promoting where they want to see more growth. There's a lot of big corporate software packages working a lot like this right now as well.

The only way I see any of that working is if they throw in adult content to the mix. If your paying $5-$10 dollars on a monthly basis, that's about the same as paying for an online porn subscription. It would be better spent on a one time purchase, otherwise it better be one of those "will make you c.u.m. in less than five minutes" kind of games or I want my money back!!!

 

[tmv]

Therefore it is much more profitable to chop up all the features of a game and release them over different sequel installments of the series and paid DLC.

You could still do that, especially when you are in full control of the engine. The "modern" form of DLCs might even fit better for this than the much larger expansions we were used to about 10 years ago (although the newer versions of Civ seem to have both kinds). You could have the larger options / modmods as DLCs (to fund further development), or add even more eras until you match the timeline of Spore, or you could add e.g. fantasy DLCs, either generic fantasy or buy the licences of the big fantasy brands and optionally include them via DLCs, perhaps even several in combination.

If that is not enough, with the capacity of modern PCs you could also include "subgames", e.g. instead of a city-screen you get a proper city-builder (Simcity style), battles are handled like in Total War, the Transhuman+ eras let you play like Master of Orion / Galactic Civilizations (and you get the "proper" Civilization screen for each planet you zoom into), and you can draw in even some of the casual players by showing stunning graphics once games in the Terabyte range become feasible. Once we commonly have RAM sizes in the upper range of what 64 bit allows, offer the size of "real" galaxies, and later on, go beyond even that. All the while include newly popular "alternative" worlds (mostly fantasy), and you have a game that continues to evolve for decades.

 

[Joij21]

modmods as DLCs

Why would any developer charge cash for modmods? Let alone mods? Mods are supposed to be free and demanding money for that would be straight up greed.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Why would any developer charge cash for modmods? Let alone mods? Mods are supposed to be free and demanding money for that would be straight up greed.

Yeah so asking for money for your efforts is greed now.

 

[Joij21]

Yeah so asking for money for your efforts is greed now.

We were talking about Firaxis releasing a new game that is essentially the same as C2C. Not a mod like C2C. I mean you could get into a potential legal argument that they would essentially just repackage ideas that this team made, and charge money for it. But that's different than making a game, and then charging money for people to have the right to make mods on the platform.

 

[Thunderbrd]

We were talking about Firaxis releasing a new game that is essentially the same as C2C. Not a mod like C2C. I mean you could get into a potential legal argument that they would essentially just repackage ideas that this team made, and charge money for it. But that's different than making a game, and then charging money for people to have the right to make mods on the platform.

Not exactly how I took that. The way you put it said very generically that efforts at modding a game by or not by the developer of the game should never produce a product that anyone should have a right to charge for.

 

[Joij21]

Not exactly how I took that. The way you put it said very generically that efforts at modding a game by or not by the developer of the game should never produce a product that anyone should have a right to charge for.

Modding is something that consumers of the game do. There is no real life example of developers modding their game, otherwise that would be called an expansion not a mod. By definition modding is something that can only be done by the consumer.

On the topic of modders charging for a mod, they simply can't due to legal issues. A mod exists on a pre existing platform created by the developers who charged money for the product. Since mods use pre existing assets and code they would be considered illegally reselling the product as sold by the original developers.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Modding is something that consumers of the game do. There is no real life example of developers modding their game, otherwise that would be called an expansion not a mod. By definition modding is something that can only be done by the consumer.

On the topic of modders charging for a mod, they simply can't due to legal issues. A mod exists on a pre existing platform created by the developers who charged money for the product. Since mods use pre existing assets and code they would be considered illegally reselling the product as sold by the original developers.

I see. By that distinction then, BtS is not a mod of Vanilla CivIV but an expansion. But what happens if expansion is simply an ongoing process with regular updates?

 

[Joij21]

But what happens if expansion is simply an ongoing process with regular updates?

Then its just called an update. Seriously where have you been living? These are pretty universal gaming terms.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Then its just called an update. Seriously where have you been living? These are pretty universal gaming terms.

Well this is a mod with regular updates so... shrug. Just making sure I understand ya. You were simply referring to modding as being something not done by the company to its own game so I suppose that is a different thing to what I assumed you meant. Would've thought any attempt to change a game is modding whether it be by the company that made it or not.

 

[Yudishtira]

A range of mods including Next War and Rhye's were included in BtS. This is a case of mods being charged for. It is also a case of mods being released by the original developers.

I'd hope Firaxis paid the modders for their mods, but I have no intel on that score.

 

[Joij21]

They might of been. Those mod creators never released their mods for earlier versions. For instance I don't remember Rye ever making RFC for Warlords. So I believe these modders were given some kind of early access copy of BTS before release. They then used this to make the mods that were later released. Probably got compensation as well. But who knows maybe they did exist earlier and Sid conned them. The world may never know!

 

[tmv]

We were talking about Firaxis releasing a new game that is essentially the same as C2C. Not a mod like C2C. I mean you could get into a potential legal argument that they would essentially just repackage ideas that this team made, and charge money for it. But that's different than making a game, and then charging money for people to have the right to make mods on the platform.

Talk about illusion of transparency. As the official developer you would of course not simply release C2C as a new game. When you have access to the engine / exe, there are a lot of things that you would change immediately, starting with going to 64 bit. Then you would change the planetary map to a sphere surface (close enough to the real form of planets), because that alone would be extremely helpful in making the transition to the "space" part. Taking out the bugs that have been uncovered in the last 15 years (like the inevitable MAFs after playing for too long) would be done as well. And most of the points I put in would require access to the engine as well.

When I said

larger options / modmods as DLCs

I meant things like Revolution, Combat mod, etc. that require a lot of effort to get right, while not everyone is going to use it. If such options (or comparable ones) were written by the official developers, implementing them as DLCs would probably be a smart choice - far better than small content packs that people could theoretically write for themselves in an afternoon, but with the official seal of approval using them doesn't invalidate achievements.