[NOT BUG] Upgrade scout to archer, continues to Ignore Terrain Cost

[bilblak]

I built a scout and had it happily roaming the map finding ruins. The second ruin I found upgraded my scout with knowledge of some sort and my unit then became an archer. However, this fully functional archer unit retained the "Ignores Terrain Cost" ability of the scout.

A bug, or a nice feature?

I'm leaning towards bug myself.

 

[ainwood]

Well, the "Ignore terrain cost" is actually a promotion, and promotions aren't lost on upgrade. Compromise and call it a "possible bug".

 

[Zelig]

Some promotions are lost, there's a switch for it in the XML, but most are not.

I would tend to take away any promotions that are inate to units.

 

[bilblak]

Well, the "Ignore terrain cost" is actually a promotion, and promotions aren't lost on upgrade...

I had the fortune of this phenomenon happening in the exact same manner in a later game. Scout runs up to ruins, gains technology, and becomes an archer unit with the "ignore terrain cost" ability.

Based on what you said about it being a promotion and promotions not being lost on upgrade, I'm starting to side on this being a feature and not a bug.

 

[Turelio]

Why would anyone think this is a bug?

It would be a pain in the ass every time your scouts opened a goody hut and got a promotion that removed their only useful attribute, and then you had to build a new scout.

 

[dshirk]

By design. =) It didn't feel right to have your scouts mobility gimped by an upgrade, so we kept the promotion in place.

 

[jacyp]

Today I saw an AI Mech Inf that had the +100% vs cavalry bonus, possibly a unit upgraded all the way or a spearman that had "weapons upgrade" from ancient ruins applied to him?

 

[Zelig]

By design. =) It didn't feel right to have your scouts mobility gimped by an upgrade, so we kept the promotion in place.

I would happily have my scouts' mobility gimped in exchange for my siege units dropping their "forced to setup before firing" when they're upgraded to rocket artillery, as well as all the ranged units' upgrades becoming useless when they're upgraded to riflemen.

edit: Also, chariot archers keeping their rough terrain penalty when upgraded to knights is enough for me to never build them.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I would happily have my scouts' mobility gimped in exchange for my siege units dropping their "forced to setup before firing" when they're upgraded to rocket artillery, as well as all the ranged units' upgrades becoming useless when they're upgraded to riflemen.

edit: Also, chariot archers keeping their rough terrain penalty when upgraded to knights is enough for me to never build them.

"Negative Effects" should definitely not be promotions that carry over with upgrades.

 

[jacyp]

"Negative Effects" should definitely not be promotions that carry over with upgrades.

Neither should positive effects.

Why a scout ignores terrain costs? Becouse he travels light, with no armor and ridiculous weapons, hence his inability to fight. So if you upgrade his weapons, no matter how experient they are at being scouts, they will be heavier and will lose the ability.

It makes no sense at all that the inherent abilities (good or bad) that a unit has becouse of his equipment, carries on through an upgrade that completely changes the role of the unit.

I think this is definitly a bug that has to be corrected.

 

[clearbeard]

Neither should positive effects.

Why a scout ignores terrain costs? Becouse he travels light, with no armor and ridiculous weapons, hence his inability to fight. So if you upgrade his weapons, no matter how experient they are at being scouts, they will be heavier and will lose the ability.

It makes no sense at all that the inherent abilities (good or bad) that a unit has becouse of his equipment, carries on through an upgrade that completely changes the role of the unit.

I think this is definitly a bug that has to be corrected.

Only you have no control over that scout being upgraded to an archer (beyond never using him to explore ruins I suppose, which defeats their whole purpose), while you can control other upgrades.

On a related note, "like" promos on upgraded units stack, such as +2 sight for caravels stacking with +3 sight when you upgrade to destroyers, for +5 sight total! I highly recommend one of these puppies escorting any fleet through sub-infested waters.

I'd be in favor of all equipment-related promos except the scout's ability (for gameplay, not realism reasons) going away, positive or negative, when upgraded. Or at least keeping the best version of similar promos, though I can't think of any upgrade path that would go from, say, +2 sight to +1 sight.

It would also be nice for useless promos to be refunded, so riflemen upgraded from crossbowmen don't have worthless ranged attack bonuses. But that's more a preference than a bug.

 

[linearcore]

I would happily have my scouts' mobility gimped in exchange for my siege units dropping their "forced to setup before firing" when they're upgraded to rocket artillery, as well as all the ranged units' upgrades becoming useless when they're upgraded to riflemen.

edit: Also, chariot archers keeping their rough terrain penalty when upgraded to knights is enough for me to never build them.

I posted a fix for this at http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9754870&postcount=34 based on some of the information you posted earlier in that thread. You could do the same thing for the chariot archers since lost "promotions" are lost when you upgrade, then the new upgraded unit adds its own inherent promotions.

 

[clearbeard]

If you notice in the Civ5UnitPromotions.xml, all of the intrinsic abilities use
<PediaType>PEDIA_ATTRIBUTES</PediaType>
while none of the other promos do. A global solution for those who want all of these abilities lost on upgrade, then, would be to make a mod including:

<UnitPromotions>
		<Update>
			<Set LostWithUpgrade="true">
			<Where PediaType="PEDIA_ATTRIBUTES">
		</Update>
<UnitPromotions

That should catch all of them, and none of the rest, at least until a patch comes out making the 'Pedia less worthless.

I suspect that you could add a later line changing the current scout behavior back to what it is now, for those of us who think that is a feature, not a bug.

 

[King Rad]

for gameplay purposes, the promotions carrying over (at least ones that aren't negative like the chariot archer) could be considered as continuing development of a single unit/division/whatever that changed as technology did but continued the experience, etc. of the old units. as an interesting promotion, I had a knight upgrade to calvary to a tank and then to modern armor - all before i discovered oil or aluminum. it's the late 1800's and I have a modern armor running around discovering the ruins on the, as yet, undeveloped (except for city states) 2nd continent on a terra map. With each promotion, I got a message that the unit was not operating at maximum effectiveness because I lacked a certain resource - in each case one that I didn't have the technology for yet. Of courser, the modern armor at reduced effectiveness was still pretty much unstoppable by brutes, archers, and pikemen.

 

[Uranus Reamerz]

Its a "nice feature" ... run him around some more and upgrade to xbows with no terrain limit on movement ... quite a "queen" piece early on and if your real lucky find some lost island ruins .. and get him upgraded to Modern inf ... with the terrain effect exclusion in the Mid Evil age .. steam rolled the map ... so its not actually very fun ... after a while

 

[Cannes]

I would happily have my scouts' mobility gimped in exchange for my siege units dropping their "forced to setup before firing" when they're upgraded to rocket artillery, as well as all the ranged units' upgrades becoming useless when they're upgraded to riflemen.

edit: Also, chariot archers keeping their rough terrain penalty when upgraded to knights is enough for me to never build them.

Having a chariot archer with the blitz upgrade and extra movement upgrade is really powerful though. 5 attacks per turn is awesome!