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Not enough Gold late game for large empires

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Voremonger, Jan 7, 2020.

  1. Voremonger

    Voremonger Chieftain

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    EDIT: I misunderstood how Puppets are factored into the Gold yield. Disregard this post.

    I think that you are currently not getting enough Gold late game if you have a large number of Cities (~15 or more).
    The problem as I see it is that a large amount of your income comes from Trade Routes.
    And because the number of Trade Routes you get does not scale with the size of your empire it becomes increasingly difficult to get enough Gold for covering maintenance costs the more Cities you have.
    I suggest changing Stock Exchanges in a way where each Stock Exchange built increases the Gold yield of all owned Stock Exchanges by 1.
    I just played a game with this change where I went Authority -> Fealty -> Imperialism with ~20 Cities and the amount of Gold I got per turn seemed to me to be about right.
    An alternative approach would be to somehow scale the number of Trade routes you get based on the number of Cities you have but I think that this would have implications beyond just Gold (Science, Culture, Tourism).
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020
  2. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

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    I've normally been OK with the amount of gold in the late game personally but it can be very 'swingy'.

    Going authority/imperialism means that I'm probably only able to send trade routes to vassals because I'm probably at war with everyone else, so my trade routes probably aren't as lucrative as normal. Can't sell luxes to people that hate me so more GPT lost. I also probably have lots of puppets which are usually bad for GPT. However, as long as I'm still conquering then the massive instant gold I get from taking cities via Imperialism's 'Civilizing Mission' (my god that's some nefarious double speak) probably keeps me afloat even if I have negative GPT. But if my conquering spree slows then the whole thing implodes. I don't really see that as a bad thing, though- I kind of like that design.

    A wide but peaceful empire also has tools available to keep its economy afloat. They don't typically have the above issues putting them into negative GPT. Adding a bunch of GPT from stock exchanges might just give them a glut.
     
  3. Rafs

    Rafs Warlord

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    My experience hasn't been the same, though there is a period in the mid-late game (late industrial/modern) where your GPT will probably be dangerously low (you could probably dip into negatives if you didn't take any measure to increase your gpt through tailored policies/religion to get extra GPT, you'll have to rely on merchants). As soon as you get stock exchanges and some ideologies to help you should be able to stabilize.
    I say this as someone who only plays HUGE highland maps, with 25-55 city empires by the end of the game, and the gpt "crunch" is only temporary. In the real endgame (information era) you shouldn't have any problems with gold, and if you dip into industry you'll be swimming in gold.
    I will say, Authority > Fealty > Imperialism is the most gold starved policy choice in my experience, unless you have lots of pastures/good monopoly to help with gpt, so if you go that route be prepared to have a poorer treasurery.
    It is important to note that gold, despite being one of the easiest yields to get, does require you to do something to get it (don't rely on trade routes if you are going warmonger though), so either make more villages, tailor religion or make some other policy choices, it's all about balancing out the weak points.
     
  4. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I generally agree that there is a large dip in gold at the Industrial era, and I routine go into negative GPT. But a few wealth processes on some cities is usually enough to hold me until stock exchanges, and then those push me back into the black
     
  5. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I think the maintenance on arsenals and public schools is a bit high.
     
  6. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    vyyt, bigcat88, TranceBlossom and 2 others like this.
  7. lunker

    lunker Warlord

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    I've been through a few GPT crisis and it can be pretty rough. But I find that refraining from building late game buildings and using the Gold process help keep me positive.
     
  8. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    Well you're supposed to get your Gold from conquest, peace deals, Vassal Taxes and Tributing City States with that strategy...always works for me when I go that route.

    Overall I'd say that especially with the recent late game maintenance reduction I don't feel that this problem exists at all. Do note that not every building is useful in every City (looking at you, Hotels!) and skipping some of them will save you loads in maintenance. Also, Gold needs to be part of the strategy; if in the choice of belief, settling locations, policies, general game plan Gold is completely disregarded then it will become a problem. Another potential issue is Puppets, especially without Imperialism: they can take up a lot of building maintenance in late game but have low Gold output because of the -80% Yield reduction, so annexing them will often give you a large chunk of GPT you didn't have...do that with 5 Puppets and it could be literally hundreds of GPT. Another strategy is selling Technology, which can get you some extremely juicy deals...just make sure you don't sell to people who dislike you or they'll declare on you shortly after, thus cancelling their payment :lol:.
     
    vyyt and lunker like this.
  9. Voremonger

    Voremonger Chieftain

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    It seems I misunderstood how Puppets work.
    I was assuming that the maintenance costs for buildings would first be subtracted from the gross GPT of the City to calculate the net GPT, and that the net GPT would then be cut by 80%/50%.
    In other words, I was assuming that building maintenance costs would be reduced by 80%/50% as well.
    I simply had negative GPT late game because of all the Puppets I eventually acquired.
     

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