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Notes on OCC in BTS

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Welnic, Sep 2, 2007.

  1. Welnic

    Welnic Chieftain

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    OCC has changed quite a bit in BTS. With the addition of National Park the only thing that limited the city before BTS is now gone. For balance purposes you can now only build 5 national wonders, so there are some decisions to made now about what to build instead of simply everything.

    The first crucial decision in an OCC game is what map to play on. One of my favorite parts of an OCC game is seeing the huge amount of land that you city covers once it is legendary. So that means that I don't want to be near the coast. Since I'm not near a coast I won't be able to build any boats, ever. This means playing on a map where you can get to everywhere without having to use a boat. I prefer to play Pangea with pressed shores so there are no islands.

    The size of the map is crucial. When you play on a huge map there are modifiers to the tech speed to make it slower since everyone can have more cities than a standard size map. Since with OCC you will only have one city, this is a big disadvantage. I play either standard or small maps. It helps if you further cut down on the amount of cities the AI civs have by adding a few more players into the mix. I usually play with 8-9 civs on small and 11-12 on standard.

    The other big decision before the start is who to play. In normal play my favorite leader is Random, but I don't think much of him for OCC. So many traits are totally or mostly useless in OCC that I always choose a leader. The traits that help you fight really aren't that useful, going out and taking over huge amounts of territory just means that someone else gets to expand into that area. That means that Aggressive, Charismatic, Imperialistic, and Protective don't really work that well. The secondary bonuses of these traits aren't that useful either, though Imperialistic's faster settler building is as worthless as it can be. The happy bonus of Charismatic would be useful early, but happiness is not a long term problem in OCC. Organized is totally worthless as civic costs are always 0, and a half price courthouse (just one) isn't necessary since city maintenance is 0 also. Creative doesn't help any since the city will be a cultural monster whatever you do.

    Surprisingly, Financial isn't really a big help. If you do go the cottage route since you will only have the one city they will all mature relatively early in the game. Once you get to towns they will peak at 5-6 commerce per town, since with financial that will only be 6-7, the percentage difference is just not that great. Financial makes the biggest difference when you have a lot of tiles that would generate 2-3 and they get boosted to 3-4. But at least it does something.

    In Warlords, Expansive was an excellent trait to go with. Health problems start fairly early and persist through the whole game. If you play with an inland capital like I do then you probably wouldn't see any health boost for seafood until you built the Globe Theatre and could trade away happiness resources for them. But with the drop in BTS to +2 health from +3 health, and the addition of the National Park. I no longer think of Expansive as a top tier OCC trait. I'm already missing playing as Isabella.

    Industrious is a great OCC trait. For one thing, you are going to build 5 national wonders. Industrious will save a lot of time there. And at the level that I play at, Monarch, you can definitely grab a lot of useful wonders. You aren't going to making huge rampaging armies, no settlers, and your infrastructure buildings just have to be built once. So you can put some time in building wonders.

    Philosophical is the other choice for an OCC trait. My last game I was Industrious and I still never built a cottage, just ran specialists the whole game. Obviously this would work even better for generating GPs if you are Philosophical. What you do with all of the GPs is up to you, but settling them seems to work better in OCC than a normal game.

    Since there is no leader who is both Industrious and Philosophical, you have to choose one of those and another trait. Since Expansive has lost some of its effectiveness in OCC, that means Spiritual. Spiritual is one of my favorite traits anyway, but it reaches a new level of effectiveness in OCC. You don't have to say 75% of my cities are building buildings so I'll be in Organized Religion. Since there is only one city you can always be in exactly the right civic for what you are doing. Plus, temples are half price, and they are one of the few buildings that you build more than one of. That is kind of a joke, except it isn't funny.

    Some of the victory conditions just don't work. You can't get cultural or domination. Unless you turn on permanent alliances, in which case you can. Time victory is a weak fallback, since your civilization is going to be so small the chances that you can win a time victory after not winning some other way is pretty slim. Space race is usually the easiest, it is perfectly strait-forward, you tech your way to the parts and then you build them. Key to being able to do this is being on a smallish map. Conquest is also possible. Maybe you could start on this early and take some civs as vassals so that other civs don't get too big, but I've never really tried that. My conquest victories have come by going on a rampage around the time that you get tanks and just wiping out or vassalizing everyone in one big long continuous war. Diplomatic victories are certainly possible, and they will be true diplomatic victories, not you voting for yourself because it is quicker than finishing the domination. Your votes will be truly insignificant, you have to be loved by a majority of the other nations, and you have to build the UN yourself. To go that route will definitely give a workout to the spiritual trait.
     
  2. Welnic

    Welnic Chieftain

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    So which national wonders do you need? This has become an issue in BTS since you can only build 5 now. Some are pretty easy to dismiss, some you will probably always build, and then there are some that depend on your situation.

    Never

    Mt. Rushmore: If you are worried about happiness you build the Globe Theatre and then you are done.

    Hermitage: Your one city will be a culture monster no matter what you do. This is not worth building.

    Red Cross: This does have a positive affect, but I just can't see it making it into the top 5. It is such a late game thing that I am usually building 80% tanks at the time, which do not get any benefits from this.

    Always

    Oxford: You will need all the science you can get, just like any game.

    Maybe

    Moai Statues: If you do have a coastal start, then you will have to build this. If you don't, then you won't. It is an easy call.

    National Epic: I have become undecided about building this. Yes you get more GP, but some of them are Great Artists. In a normal game I actually like GAs in a lot of situations, but I really have no use for them in OCC. In my last game I had 4 GAs, out of 20 GPs. I did also build the Parthenon, which I think is an even bigger mistake. An option would be to build it late, at least after you get the Great Library going or even after the National Park is up. Then the chances of getting a GA would be way less. If you aren't Philosophical you have to build it at some point.

    Globe Theatre: This was the building that you couldn't wait to build pre BTS. But now I think you would only build it if you planned on not building the National Park. If you wanted to have full power from Ironworks, or you are worried about not having aluminum, then you don't want to build the National Park, then you want to build this. It is great in that you no longer have to worry about being forced to run civics that you don't want.

    National Park: For me this is the new must have building. Though it does seem weird to consider it a building. But anyway, health was always the limiting factor in pre BTS OCC, and this eliminates those worries. If you capital has enough forests that you can hang onto then the amount of specialists you can run is staggering. The happiness bonus you get from Forest Preserves should also take care of most of your happiness concerns. You can also trade away health resources for happiness ones. Since your population is not actually that big happiness isn't that big an issue anyway. You do lose access to coal, which means that coal plants don't work and the Ironworks is somewhat crippled. Also if you don't have aluminum then you can't get it using Aluminum, Inc. But coal does still let you build railroads.

    Heroic Epic: This is pretty situational. I build it if I am need to make a lot of units for defense and it is going to be a while before I get any other production boosts. If I am not planning on a conquest win then I try to do without it.

    Wall Street: This is not that necessary, as expenses in OCC are so low that money is usually not a problem. Though if you are going for Space Race and things are peaceful you will probably have a slot open for it.

    West Point: I do tend to build this if there is much fighting as the small OCC population does not easily support a lot of units, so it is good if the units that you do have are highly promoted.

    Ironworks: This is a great one to get no matter what you are doing. If you have the National Park then the health problems are not a problem and just being able to run 3 more engineers is great. It is much more versatile than the Heroic Epic if you can wait for it. Once you get Ironworks your city should have enough production that you can build any unit in 1 turn, and Ironworks will really help building big things.

    Space Race combo:
    Oxford
    National Park
    Ironworks
    Wall Street
    National Epic (late)

    Conquest combo:
    Oxford
    National Park
    Ironworks (Heroic Epic if needed early instead)
    West Point
    Wall Street or National Epic

    Other BTS changes.

    The biggest change for OCC other than the National Wonders change is forts being able to collect resources. Once you can build a fort there is no reason to put anything else on a resource outside of the BFC. Especially for your metals in the early game you want to put a fort on them and fortify some units there.

    Once you have forests in the BFC with Forest Preserve, then forests will start to spread into adjacent tiles. To make it easier for this to happen so that you can chop for a late game production boost it is best if those tiles don't have roads. So this is something that you have to keep in mind the whole game since you can't pillage your own roads. Harvesting these unroaded forests is where the Fast Worker shines.
     
  3. KMadCandy

    KMadCandy giggling permanoob

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    "a half price courthouse (just one) isn't necessary since city maintenance is 0 also."

    one BtS change is that you do want a courthouse in OCC now. not for maintenance, but because it lets you run a spy specialist. but i'm not recommending the organized trait by any means!

    "My conquest victories have come by going on a rampage around the time that you get tanks and just wiping out or vassalizing everyone in one big long continuous war."

    i didn't know you could take vassals in OCC. i guess you can! but since they can break free if they get more than half your land area and population, if you do it early in the game it might not last. can't stop them from making a second city (unless you drag them into war with somebody else i suppose) so it's just a matter of time until their population grows back.

    italics added:
    "Diplomatic victories are certainly possible, and they will be true diplomatic victories, not you voting for yourself because it is quicker than finishing the domination. Your votes will be truly insignificant, you have to be loved by a majority of the other nations you and your selected friends have let live that long, and you have to build the UN yourself." ;)

    diplo OCC is too fun! voting against yourself for giggles is the best.
     
  4. frob2900

    frob2900 Chieftain

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    Why is that surprising for an OCC.

    Nah, philosophical FTW.
     
  5. Bhruic

    Bhruic Chieftain

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    Hammurabi is both Industrious and Philosophical, fyi. ;)

    Bh
     
  6. Welnic

    Welnic Chieftain

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    In my space-time continuum he is Aggressive and Organized. :confused:
     
  7. Bhruic

    Bhruic Chieftain

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    Weird, maybe I edited him... Didn't think I did, but I can't recall for certain.

    edit: Well, looks like I did. Wonder why? He wouldn't be my first pick for Ind/Phi.

    Bh
     
  8. frob2900

    frob2900 Chieftain

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    Why do you edit your leaders in the XML? Just play with the Any Leader/Any Civ option enabled.. (well, it won't give you Ind/Phi, but most others...)
     
  9. Bhruic

    Bhruic Chieftain

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    I have no idea why I did it - to the extent that I obviously forgot I did. I must have wanted to test out Ind/Phi, and for some reason picked Hammurabi. Maybe I was doing a OCC, because he's actually got a decent UU/UB combo for that.

    Bh
     
  10. Nishdog

    Nishdog Isolationist Bastard

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    I'm about to try my first OCC in BtS (and first OCC in general in a long time). I was wondering if Scotland Yard is considered a National wonder or if it's something else. Not that I expect to get enough Great Spy points to build it. I figure if I'm the first to get to Communism, that's what the free one will do. But I don't want that to block me from getting other National wonders.
    I'm hoping to build Heroic Epic, National Epic, National Park, Oxford, and Wall Street. If resources allow, I'll take Ironworks instead of National Park and then go for conquest win.

    I'm going to take Ramesses for his positive traits and have him lead either the Germans for their panzers (god help me if I don't have oil) or the Inca for the quechuas' early defense vs. archers.

    I'll be playing on Warlord level where I normally play (I'm a wimp, I know this) on a small map with 8 civs per suggestions from above.

    Any thoughts on a game speed? I have a feeling I'll be going for a conquest victory (probably at tanks as mentioned above) since I tend to attack anybody near me (i AM an isolationist bastard after all)!

    Also, I usually turn off tech trading (and now tech brokering, too). Should I change this in OCC since I won't have the research power that comes with 15+ cities?
     
  11. InvisibleStalke

    InvisibleStalke Chieftain

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    Scotland Yard isn't a national wonder anymore.

    I would drop wall street from your list - chances are you will not be short of gold as you have no city maintenance.

    The tough choice for me is which one to drop of:

    Ironworks
    National Epic
    Heroic Epic
    National Park
    Globe Theatre
    Oxford

    Probably Heroic Epic - hopefully production from settled great people is eventually going to be strong enough that troop production should be a single turn event anyway.
     
  12. Nishdog

    Nishdog Isolationist Bastard

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    But National Park weakens Ironworks as it takes Coal out of the city. Is it worth that trade-off? Maybe I could add West Point in there and pick between National Park or Ironworks. And chances are I'd go for Ironworks/West Point for a devastating military!! Or take both National Park and Ironworks and replace Heroic Epic with West Point. Perhaps XP will be more valuable to me than the extra hammers for units from Heroic Epic!?
     
  13. InvisibleStalke

    InvisibleStalke Chieftain

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    Good point - didn't think of that.

    On the other hand, its quite likely that you may not have coal to begin with in a OCC. You are often resource limited - late game happiness resources can help but I doubt you can count on getting coal.

    Is Ironworks still worth it then? You will get the bureaucracy bonus to hammers, so maybe you can live without ironworks.

    If you do have coal then its a tough call. National Park can be huge if you have a lot of forests left - getting 10 free specialists would really help. But could you leave that much forest for that long? And environmentalism is just around the corner to solve your health problems anyway. I still think its pretty powerful if you have the forest - surely the 10 free citizens can contribute more than +50% production.

    Wall Street might be very interesting with corporations too. You won't get much direct benefit from the corporation, but you could get huge benefits from spreading it.

    Globe Theatre could maybe be dropped if you used the culture slider for happiness and got your science from specialists. Once you got National Park then your happiness problems are gone too.

    OK, I've convinced myself. Drop Globe Theatre from the list and pick up Heroic Epic.

    So its:
    Iron works (runs lots of engineers)
    Oxford
    National Epic
    National Park
    Heroic Epic
     
  14. Nishdog

    Nishdog Isolationist Bastard

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    Okay, I'll work with that. But if I'm forest-poor in my city location, I'm swapping in Globe instead of the National Park. Alright, I'm going in!
     
  15. Diamondeye

    Diamondeye So Happy I Could Die

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    :lol: Lal. Awesome. :lol:

    Post Scriptum: Ignore the title of this reply.
     
  16. Nishdog

    Nishdog Isolationist Bastard

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    Hey, is it considered "cheating" if I run OCC with raging barbarians and then bee-line to Great Wall? Let my enemies worry about barbs while I hide behind my walls and build? Or am I just giving them the ammo they need for XP before they come after me with veteran units??
     
  17. Welnic

    Welnic Chieftain

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    I normally play small maps at normal speed, and then go to epic speed for standard or large. I figure the speed should scale with the size of the map. But the last game I played at normal speed on a small map my problem was it only took me one turn to make any military unit. I only made it to tanks and had the Heroic Epic. But I was making them in one turn even in vassalage instead of bureaucracy. The game I'm playing now I went with epic speed so at least if I had that problem I would make 1.5 times more units.

    If you are going for conquest I would probably go with West Point instead of Ironworks. You shouldn't have any problem cranking out units without Ironworks.
     
  18. Welnic

    Welnic Chieftain

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    I usually stuff enough civs onto the map that barbs aren't really a factor. But I like to build the Great Wall anyway since until the late game most of the fighting you are involved in is in your culture, so you get the doubled GG points.
     
  19. KMadCandy

    KMadCandy giggling permanoob

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    for me, they get to be a factor once the other guys start dying off properly. after a certain point there are parts of the map where nobody's left, the remaining AIs haven't spread there yet, and those pesky barbs want to come pillage my stuff when i have other priorities. and yup the more GGs the better, and i can't capture it from them.

    about Heroic Epic/West Point/limited national wonders ... remember that great generals can give you half of HE in a military academy. they can give you half of west point by settling (and can do that more than once). i'd love to be able to take ironworks/west point and skip HE for the mil academy. but HE comes so early and is really helpful then, since you don't have a factory and oodles of settled great people /sigh.
     
  20. Diamondeye

    Diamondeye So Happy I Could Die

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    No. This is called thinking :)
    Besides, barbs only grant Xp up to 10 and never gives GG points as far as I know.
     

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