Now, you must die!

[ZippyRiver]

I am still developing a strategy for Civ4, and have made some mistakes. This is not really a problem. I can overcome most of them. But not sure quite how to deal with this........

Very early on in the game (like turn 5 or 6), I met a mongolian scout. Told him there would be peace (we met on his turn). Soon as I could move I clipped that tresspasser. I did not what him roving around my intended lands picking off huts and animals. Several turn later we agreed to stop hostilities, and also agreed to peace. This was to be the only warring until AD. I found it funny, that because of that early backstab, the other AIs I met tended to avoid me. (cool ). I like to think the two are realted, but who knows.

The other bordering civs are arabs and egypt. The arabs were mad (still are) because of that early clip against their friend. And egypt, even though we have had "fair trade deals" and the like are not of my religion and remain cautious. I have been trying my best to improve relations with egypt to eventually go for a pact and buddy crush the rest of the civs. Myself and Egypt have the east&west coasts split at the southern most part of what it a fairly large continent from what I can tell.

North of the mongolians sits the roman empire, with at least of mongolian city north of them. After many turns, the Romans decided to attack and destroy one of my workers with an axeman and a praetorian. my worker was peacfully building a cottage on the egyptian border. I killed the two offenders with haste. Seeing as the only two empires sitting between myself and the romans are the mongolians and the arabs, I wanted either of the two to join in the fun. Basicly to thwart any advancing roman troops before they got to my clearly under manned territory.

Saladin would have nothing to do with it. He is STILL angry, for God knows reason. Genghis, OTOH, has reached pleased. Go figure. Guess he was thrilled I only killed one scout. I requested he declare war on the Romans and in return I would give him a tech and a resource. He flatly refused. I figured what the heck, I removed the tech and resource, and clicked on "would you gift it for an old friend" (or how ever it's stated). To my supprize, he accepted and declared war on Rome. I have not seen a roman troop since then. (evilgrin). Being that I like to play as honestly as I would if it were history, I decided right there that the mongolians could indeed be the stomping partner I was looking for.

I turned my attention back to Egypt. Now Hashyfoot and I have a number of resource trades in place and are about equal in land mass (though she has my quite outgunned at the moment). I am getting really perplexed at our relations. We trade resources. We trade techs. All things would seem to be going well, yet she remains cautious. Maybe she needs a good Ican bedroom session to losen her up some, lol.

Now we turn the attention to the southermost part of the continent. A fair sized ice sheet below a band of tundra. There are only two remotely viable city sites. One I got earlier on in the game, which gave me two beavers, a fish, and some marble. It's the only marble I have seen on the map so far. I get my city in place, use a missionary to get my religion there to expand the border and grab the marble. I built a workboat in the closest city so that I could grow enough to work the whopping 4 land tiles available to it. Just as I am completing it, a barbarian galley shows up. I can not get my workboat there to promote growth, so I can not work those tiles and get more culture buildings. I did expand one ring, thanks to the 1 religous culture point. I got my road down and got the quarry built. Cool, now I can persue a couple of those marble wonders in my core cities.

And then that B***H plops a city down on the coast one tile next to the marble, which also gave her access to a whale, once she expanded. This I did not have a problem with as the marble tile remained in my control. I got the herioc epic done and am about 2/3s the way to finishing the other national wonder available (in another city). And then her border expanded. When it did, I lost the marble. Now I am stuck with this POS ice city, and she has the tile I worked MANY turns to improve. Soon as she expanded and got the marble, the barbarian galley left. It's like they had a pact against me to stop this city from developing untill she could get her crumb snatching brat down there. I checked and she is STILL cautious so I know there is no WAY she would give up that city for any trade deal.

I had this happen in another game where the AI settled on my border and stole a resource. It was horses, and was right next to my city, and when the AI city expanded it took the tile that was right next to my city. It's possible they had settled first, was not sure. It pissed me off so much last time I quit the map and started a new game. This time I know for sure I was the first one there and again I get another resource stolen. I don't use the border snatch tactic as it just does not fit my playstyle and I would consider it exploitive. If I get beat to a resource by the AI, I call it a fair race and forget about it. Obviously the AI/game culture mechanics see it differently. OK, fine!......... now you must DIE!.

Of course now I have to end the war with rome, and see if Ghengis wants to split up egypt. Why? Because I just know as sure as I am sitting here, that as soon as I move my forces towards Egypt, the Romans will appear on my northern border.

RANT
THIS is why I hate the AI being able to know the location of the human's troops. Eventually you will leave a hole for one reason or another and they move their masses right that point.
/RANT

I guess I could let Ghengis and Rome continue their problems and deal with egypt myself. One thing is for sure, in future games I will beeline for vassalage/theoracy and get an army built asap and no longer will I try and buddy up to a neighbor. Crush em first, ask questions later.

I saw on a show once, the the USA was around 20th or so in world power before being pulled into WW2. Troops were being trained with weapons from WW1. Japan made the comment "I think we have awoke a sleeping giant". I am begining to know how it felt. I should have called this thread "marble harbor".

I can probably amass a big enough force to start Border war with Egypt in about 10-15 turns, and be able to sustain constant pressure. Sadly though, because of my early mistakes a lot of cities are still developing (lot, lol... I have 6 total). I guess I should be glad that it will be with axemen, archers and longbows instead of axemen VS stealth bombers. I think I should just keep everything in place for the moment, as a troop buildup would appear as if i am gonna make a move towards Rome, then when the time is right, cancel the trade deals (maybe sending some of her cities into unhappiness) and thin out the border a bit. I doubt I can crack most of her cities at first, but I think Egypt will pull her troops inside to protect them anyway, leaving the countryside open for pilliaging and pick-offs.

Or maybe I will just go nuts right now..........

 

[Greencardman]

You can also know where the AI's troops are and attack them at their weakest point as well, so its not totally lopsided. If you have a religion and a shrine, spread it to the AI, so you can keep track of their troop levels in cities. You can also keep scounts in Egypt right up until you attack, moving around checking where their troops are. Same with Mongolia, keep scounts there so you can monitor any Roman troops moving through.

 

[Veritass]

You bring up one of my whining points: Sure, I picked off a scout or a settler early in the game. It was really an accident; I was showing him my new spear and it suddenly went off. Anyway, here it is, 3000 years later, and you're still holding a grudge. I still get -1 for "You declared war on us." Come on, get over it, already.

 

[ZippyRiver]

Yeah, i had negleted sending missionaries earlier, figured better to get other things built. Now, I realise how important they are. Oh well. I got 3 built, but as I am about to go to war with Egypt I am deciding to wait and use them in the cities after I capture them. I do have a single explorer, that I used to reveal their empire. Most of her cities have 3-4 defenders, with the capitol holding a...... "larger" force.

I have two stacks, for invasion at two points. I thought about putting them all together for an uber stack, but if I did that, I am sure she would invade from whichever border area I left unattended. Hitting her from two sides should make one of the two more sucessfull. Once I start attacking, I will know which stack will do a holding action and which one will advance. She only has one Iron resource which is near to the southern stack. And one horse resource, but is on the far side of the capitol. Not likely to get that one. I and getting a cheap unit (quechua) to load in my galley and will try and get it around the other side to drop. It's a long shot the galley will even make it there, and if it does not sure I will get to pilliage before being destroyed. Worth a shot tho, as the benefit of that would be less stronger units available to her. Though with my luck, she will obtain some of either through trade.

Mongolia, after being a buddy buddhist since early on, just converted to Judaism. Guess who holds the holy city for that. Shyt. Again, the error of not sending waves of missionaries out stings. I pulled up the diplo screen, but nothing is shown under "convert" as an option to select, and clicking on "convert" does nothing. Been that way all game. Maybe I am missing something. I have not been able to build my shrine yet, so operhaps that is the missing key. Only been getting GP engineers. I just got another one this turn, but forgot to see which type it was before saving and exiting.

The next move is to invade. I stalled my science so i could get my old units upgraded. Being that I was undermanned, I decided to upgrade the 4/5s even though I can built them at 8/10. Those archers with 3 attack are just not strong enough to be fodder. Would only let the AI level up her units and that can not be a good thing. They will probably get killed, but at least they will leave a bigger foot-print on her face.

As I said before, I am still learning things about the game itself. I did try to go ahead and invade earlier based on Sid's tips about waging a pilliaging war. I thought I could easily sacrifice one of those archers or quechuas to pull a unit out of the city, then destroy it with the stack. But alas that does not work. The AI won't come out and attack the big stack, but it will come out and hit the little guy. No problem there, except attacking does not cost a full movement point. One of her chariots ran out of the city to the outer ring of the fat-x, killed my quechua and ran back into the city. DRAT! Half point attack cost? I was a bit upset about that and considered posting a gripe in the bugs forum. But it was not long before I realised that if the AI gets half cost on her own roads, so do I. I actually like the idea now. lol. If I had pilliaged with two units (kill the plantation with one, the road with the other) ir might have worked. Although the AI might not have attacked then. Anyway, Using the cheaper units as fodder to pre-damage the garrisons was not a good idea. Both stacks ended up getting decimated and minimal damage was done. Killed a couple of her units but by the time I could bring in reinforcements any damage would have been healed. So I decided to reload (figured I might have to do that anyway, but wanted to try) I really am glad that attempt failed so badly. Too many past Civ games were won going at it half-ashed. I am really impressed with Civ4. It's about time they made this game right. Sure I get irritated at times, but that is a good thing.

I managed to get a more appropriate pair of stacks together, and am now ready (I guess) to move in.

Rome sued for peace, I gave it to them. Isabella declared war on the Mongolians, and I would love to be able to gift Ghengis some units, but, well you know. She captured his most northern visible city with a huge stack (that city has buddhism, so I was able to see wuzup). Right after the 10 years were up, rome cancelled the peace deal, but the two units I could see were heading back north. Fine by me.

I have already cancelled the resource trades (couple of turns ago) with egypt. I wanted to make sure I was able to absorb the loss of + and . got enough to deal with without that too.

Gonna give it a shot, if I fail this time, I will just start a new game and try to not make the same mistakes. If anyone is interested, I can email them a copy of the save. Any input is welcome (except the "your a firgging idiot" flavor) lol.

 

[ZippyRiver]

Here is the save. If you want to take a peek at it. Might also be a good come-from behind challange for those that want to try and win it using this one as a looooong quick start.

 

[ZippyRiver]

Well, it took a couple of turns reducing their defences, but the initial invasion was a big hit in my cities (and theirs, lol). Alexandria fell 1290 and Elephantine in 1300. Byblos, the offending marble snatcher took a little longer to get around to. it fell (razed) in 1460. I got the quarry rebuilt (clicked the wrong thing while bombarding and pilliaged it). No big deal, I had some workers ready for the task. I got to enjoy my marble for two whole turns. Then Egypt must have done a culture bomb as all of a sudden it went behind her cultural border. Kinda odd too (being nice here) as the tile above it, and the tile below it remained in my control. I cussed the game.......a lot.

I used my northern troops to take Giza, but as soon as I did I got to find out what all the whoopla is with Spain. They show up near my big unit producer with about 60 troops. Rut ruh. I got a good laugh when Isabella declared war, the line was "Zippy, now it's time for you to die"

By now my armies were divided into 4 main groups. About 25% of the southern troops had to stay in Alexandria to keep it from going back to Egypt, and about 70% of the northern troops were sitting in Giza during the revolt. I immideatly obtained a cease fire with Egypt and the seldom seen Romans and moved what I could to city Three. I would use the Giza troop as a re-inforcement pack once the revolt was over. This was not to happen. Because I had signed a cease fire, and the city is boxed on land, I was not able to remove any units. Still can't. I upped my culture as much as possibre, but even after expanding twice I am still locked in.

It was a race to get to Three, but because of my extensive road network I got there in enough time to keep it from being a Spanish cakewalk. The battles were furious, but I managed to hold the city, counter attack (pumping out catapults every turn) and completly decimate the Spanish invasion. About the time Isabella had run out of troops to throw in the meat grinder the Arabs decide it's time to declare war on. Great. Resuming my removal of Egypt would have to wait even longer. It also is giving Egypt time to re-build (dangit!).

The Arabs some how had managed to get gredadiers, so defeating them was considerably harder. Thankfully he is not throwing the size army at my Isabella did. They also now have Frigates (WTF?). They are not that big from what I can see, but they have a huge tech lead over everyone. I have NO WAY to counter that. I figured at worst, they would use them to keep city defences at a minimum, and pilliage out my workboats. Fine, I can deal with that....... NOT HAPPENING! Frigates seem to have a ZOC and ALL water tiles around the ship can not be worked. This is BS IMNSHO! If you bring a Knight into enemy territory, they do not prevent population from working the surrounding 8 tiles, but that is the case with the ocean tiles. To be honest, I think it's a bug. But being a financial civ, I rely heavly on the sea-side commerce. With the loss of income, I will never be able to obtain the tech needed to keep my cities from being starved to death. Not very balanced. 3 or 4 frigates (two are already present in my waters) and an entire Civ is brought to ruin. Forget the oracle rush, this one is much worse. Game breaking worse for me.

I don't like the frigate bug, and I don't like how all the civs tended to take turns going to war with me. I have not been able to have peace for 3/4s of the game. I don't mind wars, but come on. No civ in history has had to defend it's self from coordinated invaders for 4,000 years. I felt I was doing good in spite of a couple of EARLY mistakes. I was managing to hold my own on the land. I know you can't neglect a navy, but I had the troops in place to counter and invasion that may have come that way and if the ships bombard down my defences so be it. But killing off a food supply like frigates do is (censored).

The health bar you see in the ocean is Arab frigate: