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NP/F #1 - Asoka/Monarch

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Chillaxation, Aug 30, 2011.

  1. Chillaxation

    Chillaxation Warlord

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    Series Non-Philosophical/Financial, Episode 1.

    Asoka/Monarch. "Dharmachakrapravartana-sutra"/"Setting the Wheel of Truth Rolling"

    So I realized it might help me to play through an entire game with civfanatics.com's help/heckling. My previous game was a domination win as Elizabeth on Monarch, my first win on this difficulty.

    Unfortunately, it also made me intimately aware of how much easier it is for financial and philosophical leaders to build their economies...and how far I had yet to go, since I was lagging behind many players' usual dates for techs etc.

    Therefore I pared the leader list down to the 34 leaders who are neither financial nor philosophical. I made a vector out of the 34 names. I then randomly permuted the vector into one which tells me the next 34 leaders I will play - in case I have the sticktoitiveness to be like one of those 40-thread turnset posters :goodjob: My hope is to become better at CIV, or at least to understand how much work it would take me to win consistently on Monarch before I give up and decide I have to use my free time otherwise :lol:

    -----

    First I drew Ashoka, the Chakravartin - he whose chariot-wheels rolled over the world without obstruction.

    Ashoka is Spiritual and Organized.

    Spiritual - Not happy about this; I avoid Spiritual leaders when playing for fun. I highly dislike diverting production from military and infrastructure to build religious units and buildings; the Spiritual trait may force me to get over myself about this. Priesthood enables the half-cost building for this trait.

    Organized - A fine trait. It's easy for me to remember that Organized builds Courthouses at half hammers; remembering this about Lighthouses is harder. I have to keep in mind that coastal cities will not be as slow starting up, and should be settled more boldly. Sailing and Code of Laws - and, much later, Assembly Line - enable this trait's half-cost buildings.

    -----

    India has the only worker UU, the Fast Worker. Well-respected Civ mavens think this is one of the best UUs. In a way, the Fast Worker will force me to think even more about efficient worker management as I will have no combat UU to give me an advantage during the course of the game. This UU is buildable at the beginning of the game, a distinction shared only by the Incan Empire's Quechua.

    India's UB, the Mausoleum, comes later in the game with the discovery of Constitution. It is a Jail replacement that gives +2 :c5happy:. I hope to have such a tech lead by Constitution that WW-related :c5angry: will not be a problem. We'll see if that hope has any basis in reality :lol:

    -----

    Goals:

    Tech rate/economy: In my last game I got CoL, CS and Lib significantly later than benchmarks mentioned by good players on CF forums - and this was with rapid bulbing from Philosophical and strong cottage output from Financial. Ideally I'd have an improved economy even without those crutch traits. This is the primary area where I'd like to improve my play.

    Expansion pace: Pursuant to the above, I'd like to hit the sweet spot in REX where I don't completely kneecap myself either in land-grabbing or in tech pace. Keeping worker numbers near davemcw's 1.5 per city should give me a strong advantage in setting up pre-border-pop productive cities. I realized recently that a major strategic problem I've had is that I consistently place cities such that I have to wait for the borders to pop before I have workable tiles. While I can't throw tiles away for the sake of having immediate production/commerce, I'm looking to make new cities as productive as possible as quickly as possible, without waiting for culture pops.

    Military buildup: I'm going to play with my military buildup levels a bit. For a long time while playing Prince level I built minimal military and was consistently invaded. davemcw's admonition to stay near the top in soldiers was fine for that level, but I find I fall behind in tech at the expansion pace necessary to keep up in land on Monarch. Other fine Immortal/Deity level players do not recommend such a strong military, giving such benchmarks as staying above 50% power of your strongest neighbor. I think I'll walk a middle way; I'll take slipping to 7/9 in soldiers as a signal to build army, and rising to 3/9 as a signal to stop building the military and refocus. Of course it's critical with this to just play the map, rush when it's advantageous, prepare for war when a war would be winnable, and play the diplomacy game when it's not. I got a lot of mileage out of catapults on Prince, and I'm open to a cat/sword or cat/elephant war if the opportunity presents itself.

    -----

    TL/DR. Settings are Monarch, Large, Continents, Normal speed, choose religions, no huts, no events, cultureflipping after capture.

    Here's our puppet ruler:



    Here are our settings:



    And here's the start:



    Save is attached below.

    The gray forest on the N frontier suggests that we are on the northern reaches of this planet. I think moving the warrior 1W might show something worthwhile, but each of the 7 directions our settler can move would cost an entire turn. I'm inclined towards SIP.

    Spoiler :
    Moving warrior 1W reveals coastline, desert and some sheep. Nothing amazing. Even more inclined to SIP.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. ecuwins

    ecuwins Emperor

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    Why does Spiritual cause you to "divert production from military and infrastructure to build religious units and buildings"?

    For me, Spiritual means one can slip in and out of religions for diplo purposes, pacifism, and organized religion. It also lets you switch between slavery and caste much more freely.
     
  3. michmbk

    michmbk Emperor

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    Spiritual is an awesome trait for warring & building. Building units? Switch to vassalage/theocracy for a few turns.

    Building infrastructure? Switch to OR..

    Focus on economy? Switch to civil service & free religion.

    It's a very useful trait that doesn't require focusing on one game type. I think you'll find Asoka is an awesome warmonger. The two traits work well in a constant war/recovery type of game, and he's got one of the top UUs around. My fastest axe rush ever came with Asoka - two fast workers chopped out enough axes to kill two nearby AI in lightning speed.
     
  4. Chillaxation

    Chillaxation Warlord

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    Clearly I've been too focused on the half-priced temples to fully utilize the free civic/religion switching! :lol: I'll guess I'll try it your way this time around, guys.
     
  5. ecuwins

    ecuwins Emperor

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    Keep in mind, with Spi, you can change religion and civics on the same turn :cool:
     
  6. shyuhe

    shyuhe Deity

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    Spiritual is awesome. It lets you use caste/pacifism and slavery/OR much more effectively because you can constantly swap between them. Asoka is also a very good leader with one of the game's best UUs.

    edit: if you're going to play a large map, you should probably play on epic speed so that the map size scales to game speed.
     
  7. gorf37

    gorf37 Warlord

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    Don't beat yourself up too much about not keeping-up with the high level players. Firstly, the AI's tech pace will have an effect on your dates, and at this level, if your city and worker management is half-decent, you'll out-tech the AI before Alphabet. This means that the techs that Immortal/Diety players are trading for won't be available to you, and you'll be self-researching more techs.

    Secondly, the really good players out there are just that: REALLY effin' GOOD! Their non-chalant way of writing "Of course I researched Code of Laws next." Hides the fact that knowing that CoL is the best choice is the result of 100s of games played, and deep discussion and analysis of strategy. (Check-out the Succession Game of the Month Threads if you really want to be impressed.)

    Good luck! Your start looks a little rough. At least there's lots of trees! Bronzeworking/The Wheel, and someone's going down! :)
     
  8. Chillaxation

    Chillaxation Warlord

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    Supposing I don't know why map size ought to scale to game speed, how would I find out more about this?
     
  9. Chillaxation

    Chillaxation Warlord

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    Thanks for all this!
     
  10. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    not fun to play large map... I somehow tested it with some axe rush "fun"...

    One advice... build TGW.
     
  11. huerfanista

    huerfanista Emperor

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    Please turn on tile yields and resource bubbles so that your screenshots convey some usable information to the rest of us. :)
     
  12. Chillaxation

    Chillaxation Warlord

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    May this ancient Bharata become a jewel garland that will never leave you. Duryodhana causes all creatures to be slain and wastes the earth; he fans the flame of hostility that at last consumes all.

    But in my opinion life is taken with every breath. What do you think?


    -from The Mahabharata

    -----

    NP/F #1 Turnset 1, turns 0 through EOT 25.

    Even looking at the save I have ready to go, I realized I haven't ever gotten into this idea of free-form civic switching under the Spiritual trait; I haven't yet switched to Slavery even though BW got in by T15. It's not a critical oversight as I haven't yet grown Delhi to size 2.

    T0 - SIP. Border sight reveals a Deer tile 2NW of Delhi.

    Tech: Thick forest cover would almost necessitate Bronze Working first for any civ; India is advantaged by starting with Mining and Mysticism; furthermore the only other uncovered tile is sheep, and I feel like mining the sheep only to pasture them 30 turns later is a waste of worker turns. Hunting>AH is 21 turns of research for one tile of benefit and then a long stall on my workforce. I briefly consider growing to 2 on warriors and attempting to pick up a religion, but remind myself I'm on Monarch and have other plans. India researches bronzeworking.

    Production: Fast worker first will stall for 3 turns. Luckily we've settled on a plains hill, so switching to the plains/spice/forest gives us a nice income and a warrior in 4 turns, leading to the fast worker coming in only a turn after bronzeworking. I feel like giving the city the 4 turns of food also, as growing Delhi will be a pain in the ass until Calendar. Delhi builds a warrior.

    T3 - Our warrior scouting west of Delhi finds site Alfa, an obvious uber-NE-site that has the further advantage of requiring only Sailing and not CS for full food. Alfa will eventually run 7 specialists at 10 population, which is about as perfect a GP-farm as I've ever seen. Alfa will run 11 hammers on 3 tiles if necessary, and could get up to 17 on 6 in a pinch with no chopping. With nine cottageable tiles max it's not really a tile-commerce contender without Colossus.

    T4 - Delhi: warrior > fast worker.

    T8 - The Vikings are somewhere around: Ragnar presents himself. India does not declare war.



    Their scout comes in from 2 tiles NE to our SW scouting-warrior, so I suspect Nidaros is not far away.



    T9 - A lion is sighted by our E warrior.

    T10 - The lion attacks across a riverside into a forest. The warrior wins and begins healing.

    T15 - Bronzeworking is in, and we have copper 3S1SE of Delhi. I make a loose dotmap that tightens over the course of several turns. In the end I think we'll claim the copper and the corn in what is called site Bravo in the save. Bravo will undoubtedly cottage.

    Our westerly warrior has found the borders of Nidaros not far to the SSE.



    Note that the dotmap and signs are early thoughts on settling the copper.

    Military/Diplomatic: I think Ragnar is psychotic and will inevitably lead the Vikings on a path to war. Vikland lies close by, and Nidaros sits on a delicious equatorial initial city site (note the nearby jungle). More scouting and time will tell all, but my instincts cry for an axe rush.

    Tech: Luckily India begins with mysticism, so border popping is available in a pinch. The military situation being so urgent, I'd rather not wait for the pop on the copper site. Luckily I think the best dotmap gets the copper within the inner ring of site Bravo, which will be our second city site. I may be making a big blooper here, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the river will quite carry the copper to Delhi. We need one tile of road, so we need the wheel. Therefore India: Bronzeworking > wheel.

    T16 - Delhi: Fast worker > fast worker. Our worker gets chopping.

    T23 - Delhi: Fast worker > settler. Our 2d worker gets chopping. After this I think warrior, barracks and see what we can do to get Delhi growing while building axemen. I'm against whipping here even under slavery until we have at least a +4F tile and a granary.

    T24 - India: Wheel > agriculture. Next will likely be animal husbandry, then pottery.

    T25 - A bird's eye view:



    The southern frontier:



    Delhi at T25:



    We're two chops away from a settler with no new contacts. I'll switch into slavery when I boot up the save tomorrow. Site Bravo will likely be our 2nd city. I will have to wait on better intelligence, and settler-escort needs, to determine if we'll settle a third before axe-rushing, rush immediately, or drop the axe-rush idea entirely.
     

    Attached Files:

  13. Chillaxation

    Chillaxation Warlord

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    I remembered that in the end of turnset pics but not in all of them. There's a weird thing where you can't simultaneously see resource bubbles and make tile signs, and I am bad at remembering to CTRL-R every time after I make a sign :(

    Yields are on permanently though, so I don't have to remember that.
     
  14. Chillaxation

    Chillaxation Warlord

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    But it's better to build a large fogbusting army unless you have stone or are going for fail cash, right? This start will be fiendish enough without early wonder-chasing...
     
  15. ecuwins

    ecuwins Emperor

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    Fogbusting armies cost maintenance. TGW allows one to REX with relative impunity. Sometimes it's worth building even without stone nor ind. It's your call.

    For example - early scouting reveals you have a ton of land to rex into. AH and BW are in - omg no horse nor bronze. I really don't want to tech stupid Archery, crap I don't even have hunting. Oh wait I started with Mysticism(or Mining) -> *Techs Masonry and chops TGW pronto*
     
  16. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    That start is somewhere between devastatingly horrible and uber-atrocious. Re-roll the map. It continues to baffle me how newer players keep coming up with these horrible starts. It's not even regulation.

    food...man...FOOOOOOOOD
     
  17. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    well if you like to have standing army of ~15 axes just for defense...

    I wouldn't normally advice such thing, but if you insist on playing large map... it will save you some headache.
     
  18. Chillaxation

    Chillaxation Warlord

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    I don't know, seems like there's a large sandwich of a certain kind that the capital can take a bite of!

    Seriously though, I know the start's terrible - and now that you point it out I realize the best tile this capital's going to get is a +1 food. It's hard to imagine a worse start food-wise.

    Would anyone else rather see a re-roll? I'm grateful for the assistance, and if you all think this start's going to be a slog I'll see if I can get a good +food capital generated.
     
  19. Ororo

    Ororo King

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    Plains hill sheep? :D You've just beaten the good old Plains cow glitch with your start.
    No, seriously, just reload.
     
  20. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    the regenerate map button is there for a reason...don't play these starts
     

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