Nuclear Weapons: A Force for Good?

[RedRalph]

Luckly, the VAST majority of those weapons reside in places like Western Europe and Japan. The Soviets are who you should be pointing your finger at here.

A lot of them were probably used to kill 9 US soldiers yesterday too. Funny how things can boomerang on you, isnt it?

 

[Patroklos]

That dosent mean you automatically sit tight when you get info twenty are headed towards you.

Your right, you do what your job is and verify the tracks. Which is exactly what happened.

Not everyone would have done what Petrov did; I suspect not many even far higher up along the chain of command would have had such prescence of mind.

You can suspect all you want, but as Petrov proves in reality it seems people had the presense of mind to do just that. Petrov himself DISAGREES with you.

Hell, if you are the Soviets and America is only sending 20 nukes and option of overwhelming counterstrike is obviously secure, taking the damage and then ass raping America diplomatically is the first thing that should come to your mind.

Much as a small attack seems ridiculous, it might seem a hell of a lot less of something to dismiss if you thought you had only a few minutes to decide what to do before your country and its population were about to be incinerated.

Twenty nukes can't do that. Again, your counter strike capability would remain intact.

theres a big difference in how much pressure a kid typing on the internet in Brno and someone who effectively has the fate of the world on his shoulders is under.

Which is exactly why Petrov (and thousands like him) are purposely put in that loop, and not kids on the internet in Brno.

A lot of them were probably used to kill 9 US soldiers yesterday too. Funny how things can boomerang on you, isnt it?

10 bucks all those munitions turn out to be Chinese or Soviet/Russian. Honestly, stop bing obtuse. In your haste to be witty you sometimes forget intelligence, you are better than that.

 

[RedRalph]

Much as a small attack seems ridiculous, it might seem a hell of a lot less of something to dismiss if you thought you had only a few minutes to decide what to do before your country and its population were about to be incinerated. [/quote[

Twenty nukes can't do that. Again, your counter strike capability would remain intact.



Which is exactly why Petrov (and thousands like him) are purposely put in that loop, and not kids on the internet in Brno.

OK Patroklos, thats what happened in 1983. If the same incident could be replayed 25 times, each with a different commander, you are certain not one of them would have launched? (and about the 20 nukes thing, i meant that it would be seen as the star of a larget attack, not the entirety of an attack). and stop referring to Petrov saying "it was no big deal" you know as well as I do that from real life Firemen, policemen, doctors etc to movie suerheroes its standard practice to say "I was just doing my job, anyone else would have done the same". Any hero says that, regardless of whether its true. Its called false modesty.

 

[RedRalph]

Chinese or Soviet/Russian. Honestly, stop bing obtuse. In your haste to be witty you sometimes forget intelligence, you are better than that.

You may well be right, you may well be wrong. I suspect Afghanistan has a lot of US arms floating around in it as well as Russian ones, I would know where to look for this info so if you can find out where most arms in Afghanistan roiginated then by all means post it here, I'm quite happy to be corrected.

 

[Patroklos]

OK Patroklos, thats what happened in 1983. If the same incident could be replayed 25 times, each with a different commander, you are certain not one of them would have launched?

1.) Positive, because Petrov (being a radar watch and only a Light Colonel) didn't have the ability to launch. He, just like in America, would have to report what he saw through several layers of chain of command, all of which would also have to be ******** to decide to launch on that.

2.) If it was an exercise to verify the tracks as it proved for Petrov, then yeah. Expecially since they had seen the error 24 times before.

(and about the 20 nukes thing, i meant that it would be seen as the star of a larget attack, not the entirety of an attack).

Yes, please explain what possible purpose there is in giving away your suprise by only launching an ineffectual first wave that leaves the vast majority of retaliatory forces intact. This is exactly what several layers of Russian military and civilian leaders would be asking themselves.

 

[Patroklos]

You may well be right, you may well be wrong. I suspect Afghanistan has a lot of US arms floating around in it as well as Russian ones, I would know where to look for this info so if you can find out where most arms in Afghanistan roiginated then by all means post it here, I'm quite happy to be corrected.

Please, RRW. You can't be that desperate to make a point to seriously insinuate there are more unaccounted for US arms in Afghanistan than Soviet/Chinese ones. The entire aresenel of the Afghan Army, appropriated by the Taliban and mujahaddin leftovers, was Soviet.

 

[holy king]

You may well be right, you may well be wrong. I suspect Afghanistan has a lot of US arms floating around in it as well as Russian ones, I would know where to look for this info so if you can find out where most arms in Afghanistan roiginated then by all means post it here, I'm quite happy to be corrected.

if you dont "just do what you have to", you can hardly be considered a hero.
(you're most likely a moron otherwise)
but that's just a completely off-topic remark about the definition of "hero"...

 

[RedRalph]

Please, RRW. You can't be that desperate to make a point to seriously insinuate there are more unaccounted for US arms in Afghanistan than Soviet/Chinese ones. The entire aresenel of the Afghan Army, appropriated by the Taliban and mujahaddin leftovers, was Soviet.

I cant make this any clearer Patroklos, I'm saying if you can find the figures by all means do. I didnt insinuate anyhting and said I'd be quite happy to see them. As you Americans say, "sheesh". and of course the Taliban got a rakeload of soviet weaponry, but the muj got plenty of american weaponry too. I suspect there are more Russian weapons than Americans, but like yourself, I'm not just going to take someones word for it. you can understand that cant you?

 

[RedRalph]

1.) Positive, because Petrov (being a radar watch and only a Light Colonel) didn't have the ability to launch. He, just like in America, would have to report what he saw through several layers of chain of command, all of which would also have to be ******** to decide to launch on that.

2.) If it was an exercise to verify the tracks as it proved for Petrov, then yeah. Expecially since they had seen the error 24 times before.

why do several articles on the subject say he had to decide wether to launch his m issiles? Soviet commanders had been given authority to launch nuclear weapons autonomously before. Is it impossible this was the case in 1983? considering how high tensions were? Can you back this up? Because otherwise all we have is you making a claim that the order to launch could only have come from the Kremlin, despite the fact that in the past this wasnt always the case.

Yes, please explain what possible purpose there is in giving away your suprise by only launching an ineffectual first wave that leaves the vast majority of retaliatory forces intact. This is exactly what several layers of Russian military and civilian leaders would be asking themselves.

No, several layers wouldnt have been asking themselves this, because several layers wouldnt have time to ask themselves this. they had to decide very, very quickly wether to retaliate or not, the missiles having a flight time of what, 6 minutes form western Germany?

 

[Patroklos]

didnt insinuate anyhting and said I'd be quite happy to see them.

Yes, you did (I am assuming you understand what insinuate means).

"A lot of them were probably used to kill 9 US soldiers yesterday too."

In fact, you did not so much insinuate as flat out say so.

As you Americans say, "sheesh". and of course the Taliban got a rakeload of soviet weaponry, but the muj got plenty of american weaponry too.

You seem to fashion yourself as an arm chair general, so lets make an educated guess at the quatity of Soviet/Russian/Chinese weapons in Afghanistan to American shall we? 1000/1? 2000/1? Thats being VERY generous. Surfice to say, "probably" was probably not warranted, and your point fails.

why do several articles on the subject say he had to decide wether to launch his m issiles?

Because they are

1.) ********
2.) Hoping to illicit some "oh my god COOL" response, which apparently they succeded in doing in your case.

Lets think about this RRW. A Light Colonel, an 0-4 (or me in three years), 29-32ish, with the authority to launch the entire Russian nuclear arsenel himself? Does that pass your common sense test?

Is it impossible this was the case in 1983? considering how high tensions were? Can you back this up? Because otherwise all we have is you making a claim that the order to launch could only have come from the Kremlin, despite the fact that in the past this wasnt always the case.

Your the one making the claim that some field grade officer had control of the entire nuclear arsenal. Man, being a general in the Soviet army must have been a very underwhelming job, I guess your 30 year career piques at year 10

At no point, at any time, did the civilan/command level portions of the Soviet military not have a say in whether nukes were to be used. It is up to YOU to prove otherwise RRW.

No, several layers wouldnt have been asking themselves this, because several layers wouldnt have time to ask themselves this. they had to decide very, very quickly wether to retaliate or not, the missiles having a flight time of what, 6 minutes form western Germany?

They were not coming from Western Germany were they? Even if they were, those are not the kind that would dent the Russian command/control or stategic forces. Stop being purposely absurd.

And as to your NORAD anecdote, there was a reason the "red phone" wasn't used, and that was becasue as per precedure trained personal did the first step, well, FIRST. Or in other words the verified the tracks instead of needlessly escalating, as Petrov did. Again, there is a reason that is the case, those procedures are there on purpose

 

[RedRalph]

Because they are

1.) ********
2.) Hoping to illicit some "oh my god COOL" response, which apparently they succeded in doing in your case.

Lets think about this RRW. A Light Colonel, an 0-4 (or me in three years), 29-32ish, with the authority to launch the entire Russian nuclear arsenel himself? Does that pass your common sense test?



Your the one making the claim that some field grade officer had control of the entire nuclear arsenal. Man, being a general in the Soviet army must have been a very underwhelming job, I guess your 30 year career piques at year 10

At no point, at any time, did the civilan/command level portions of the Soviet military not have a say in whether nukes were to be used. It is up to YOU to prove otherwise RRW.

during the Cuban missile crisis authority to launch was delegated to a local commander. I habve posted an article which says he could decide whether or not to launch. You have posted nothing whatsoever which said he couldnt, all you have done is said the article is ********. Patroklos, you have nothing to back up your claim, I have an article which backs uop mine. I'm not saying its 100% true (I have, incidentally seen a short film which makes the same claim called 1983: the year of apocalpse) and have seen the claim in several other articles. So unytil you can post something to back up your claim, I'm just going to assume yiou cant.

 

[Patroklos]

Fine RRW, did you know that Private Johnson has sole authority to launch all of America's missiles. Unbelievable, but true. Seriously.

Honestly, why do you think Russians are stupid. Well, I guess that explains the Czech thing

Seek and you shall recieve.

http://everything2.com/e2node/Dead%20Hand%20nuclear%20retaliation%20system

As the article states, if there was an actual nuclear explosion (ie not a radar track) COUPLED with a complete cessation of communication with national authority THEN they could launch (the US had a similar system), and of course this is still under the authority of the national command authority (if this, this and this happens, launch and only if this, this and this happen). I hope you can see the nuances of that in contrast to your insistance that Petrov launch whenever he felt like it.

As much as I hate pop culture references, this was alluded to in War Games, when they waited for a varified detenation before authorizing retaliation.

 

[RedRalph]

OK, I'm man enough to admit when I'm wrong and I was wrong. Still think its incredible luck that Petrov did what he did though. If you know much about Yuri Andrpov though, you'll know it wouldnt have taken much to convince him the US was launching a surprise attack.

 

[Patroklos]

Eh, it all boils down to what we thin "*this*" close means. Technically you could consider a US GI and a Soviet conscript giving each other dirty looks across the Berlin Wall in 1985 as "*This*" close to nuclear war. I suppose I think it has to be far closer to the point of no return before I start thinking the world was near oblivion.

 

[RedRalph]

Eh, it all boils down to what we thin "*this*" close means. Technically you could consider a US GI and a Soviet conscript giving each other dirty looks across the Berlin Wall in 1985 as "*This*" close to nuclear war. I suppose I think it has to be far closer to the point of no return before I start thinking the world was near oblivion.

OK, but if we look at the list of the times the world was close to oblivion, surely this makes your top ten? Over the course of the entire cold war, this was at the very least the third closest call. Which in my book counts as "this close".

 

[Patroklos]

Just because some even was the "closest" to oblvion doesn't mean there was ever a realistic chance of it happening. At this very moment I am probably the closest I will ever be to banging Jessica Beil, but it really isn't anything to get worked up about.

I actually think the Cuban missile crisis is the closest we ever got, because at that time we had the actual national command authorities of both sides willing to legitimatly initiate nuclear war without the intervention of a comuter error, they were actaully considering doing so outright.

 

[Colonel]

Nuclear war will never truly happen in its fullest entirity as the USA will never allow it to occur. It is through that never ending protection and guiding sword that we have averted it over the past 60 years.

 

[holy king]

Nuclear war will never truly happen in its fullest entirity as the USA will never allow it to occur. It is through that never ending protection and guiding sword that we have averted it over the past 60 years.

thank you usa.
i guess a nuclear war between pakistan and india is inevitable then, since none of those countries is the usa?

 

[CheScott]

Don't forget that it is possible that nuclear weapons end up in the hands of terrorists.

And probably will.

I find it pretty unrealistic to think that Hiroshima and Nagasaki are going to stand forever as isolated incidences. The technology is 60 years old, now. Virtually archaic by the standards of technological development that have occoured during that time. The veil is starting to go down, as we can see with India, Pakistan, North Korea and possibly Iran. Did we really think we could keep a fence up around the genie forever?

With the collapse of the Soviet state, I'm really sorta surprised we haven't already come much closer (to our knowlege) to a terrorist use of nuclear weapons.

Mutually Assured Destruction was enough to make the case when there was a bi-polar divide with both sides capable of really destroying the other. But with the advent of tactical nuclear strikes and possibility of terrorist application, in a world that is no longer simply red or blue, I really don't see that as being the case in the future.