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Numidian Cavalry beats Keshik no competition.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by IAM, May 29, 2010.

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Best horse archer Unique Unit?

  1. Numidian Cavalry

    20 vote(s)
    14.9%
  2. Keshik

    114 vote(s)
    85.1%
  1. madscientist

    madscientist RPC Supergenius

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    Both are excellent UUs that play off the leader(s) well.

    Keshiks have the extra advantage of the GER for extra experience right out of the gate and Genghis offfers faster GG production during the critical time of the Keshiks hey day. First strike and immunity to terrain is pretty sweet.

    On the other hand Numidian get a free promotion for a charismatic leader. As many of my horse archers get flanking I and II anyway, Hannibal can start Numidian with Flanking I, II, combat 1 which is pretty damned good in my book. Since they can go up the promotion line fast from Charismatic they can get formation fairly quickly which stands up to spears nicely.

    Of the two I would go with Keshiks but it's pretty close.
     
  2. shyuhe

    shyuhe Deity

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    Keshiks by far. The AI can't really handle the whole "ignore terrain penalty" part of keshiks.
     
  3. DampRain

    DampRain Prince

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    Rage at lack of objectivity in OP.

    Keshiks.
     
  4. Mutineer

    Mutineer Deity

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    I love pillaging and chocking, so Kenchik. Numidian can get this too, (Ignore terrain promotion come after flanking 2? But it take a bit more work.
     
  5. GreatProfit

    GreatProfit Chieftain

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    You're right, I'm surprised nobody else mentioned the Mobility promotion NC's can easily get out of the box, allowing them to match one significant feature of the keshik. Combined with CHAR, NC's would have four transferable promotions after +3 xp compared to three promotions for keshiks.

    IMHO Hanny/Carthage is still better than either Khan/Mongolia overall.
     
  6. bhavv

    bhavv Glorious World Dictator

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    NCs are better for combat outside of cities. When attacking cities they fail, and I mainly play as Hannibal.

    I need to use Axes / Swords to attack cities, but NCs are unstoppable when fighting in the field.
     
  7. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    I've never managed a good run with Keshiks (maybe next map I'll try them out). My last game as Hannibal, I did like the Numis.

    Charismatic and the free promotion works well. They're only a short battle away from F2/C2, which really helps. And the other big thing - I can attack with them at low odds. Most of my Numi battles were fought at 20% odds. And do you know the great thing about that? Lots of XP. So maybe you're at 5/8 XP out the gate, but if you actually win a battle at 20% odds (where you have a 60% chance of staying alive), and you get like 5-6XP out of it. That really lets you promote fast. By far my fastest game in getting a L6 unit - I had about 4-5 Numidians who were up to 20+ XP, which is a lot of fun for a charismatic leader.
     
  8. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

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    And Boudica Preatorians are pretty cool too :p We are comparing units, not units + leader traits ...

    And, just for the record, NC with mobility are still not a match for keshiks in terms of range of action unless you are playing in a completely unforested flatland ... due to the ignore movement penalty feature ;)
     
  9. Rittmeyer

    Rittmeyer Prince

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    I prefer Numidian's.

    Keshiks get all the synergy and could be better for pure war mongering. Numidian's come coupled with an amazing leader. The extra flanking promo will somewhat make up for the lower power, since it let's you give one extra combat promo to your Numidian stack (C2F1+ C1F2).

    Also, they are boosted for their hardest match-up, spearman.With enough numbers, archers should not be a problem, except if they are fortified over hills, but in this case they are trouble anyways. Losses WILL happen.

    I'm not math sure about this, but keshiks should face more losses against spears and numidians should face more losses against fortified archers on hills. This should brake somewhat even.

    If mobility is really an issue, then keshiks are better, period. But then you could say musketeers are better then janissaries.
     
  10. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Mongolian leaders aren't all that bad traitwise in a war game.

    Archers are always a problem. A flank II numidian with combat I fights at 5.5 str. A typical, run of the mill archer fortified in a city with CG I fights at 5.85 str.

    Taking combat II puts you at 6 str, still losing to a 40% flatland city archer (6.45).

    The above shows the importance of a higher vs low strength break point. NC will withdraw around 50% of the time they lose at less than 40% odds. Keshiks in the same situation will win close to 70% of the time outright, and still have a some withdraw coverage. You can cover more conquered cities more rapidly with keshiks because you'll 1) need fewer to just capture the city and 2) have fewer redlined troops after doing it.

    In each of the above cases, STOCK horse archers are already superior to NC vs archers...and they are both common as it comes. Also notice that stock HAs and keshiks will, on average, WIN vs archers even behind walls. On top of this, keshik first strike vs spear adds a pretty significant chance to damage it badly, too.

    Combat II keshik vs fortified spear behind wall: 7.2 vs 11
    Combat II NC vs fortified spear behind a wall: 6 vs 9

    Even after factoring in flank and first strikes, it's not terribly convincing that the NC is very far ahead here, given that it's trading away winning odds vs the most common defensive unit of the era.

    As bhavv said, they are somewhat superior for field control (remember, they lose to other horse archers), but are painfully lacking vs cities.
    That analogy is awful. In musket times land is better devloped and cities are much better-garrisoned. Using either of those units WITHOUT siege is ill-advised unless your tech lead is enormous. Using keshiks or NC WITH siege pre-medieval does not make much sense offensively compared to using their mobility more actively.

    The keshik terrain move will frequently mean one or several less defenders, which is yet another strike against NC in this comparison.
     
  11. Rittmeyer

    Rittmeyer Prince

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    Again, I'm not one to get the math of the game, but I don't believe in the % chance to win at combat. So I'm not convinced. I think it's more of a matter of accepting losses. And I'm not sure you will really lose many more with NC.

    I'm a HA addict, and I've used all of them with mostly the same results. The extra power outside cities and, again, one of the best leaders in the game (if you go to war too much then that's another story, but FIN/CHA is simply much better then IMP/AGG), makes me favor NC.
     
  12. GreatProfit

    GreatProfit Chieftain

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    Au contraire, they have the exact range of action on completely forested flatland due to Mobility's -1 terrain movement cost. The only time keshiks beat Mobility NC's in mobility is for forested hills. Fortunately they do not usually cover large contiguous swathes of land.
     
  13. oleg1

    oleg1 Chieftain

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    "Shock NC vs spear with walls (not fortified, just whipped): 5.5 10% withdraw extra vs 7

    Shock Keshik vs spear with walls (same situation) 6.6 and a first strike vs 9"

    TMI, I think you miscalculate here - all bonuses apart frof combat are subtrated from defender, not add to attacker.

    With this in mind, in your particular example NC with shock+combat 1 has 3.1 against 4
    and combat1+shock heshik has 2.9 against 4.

    Please correct me if I am wrong.
     
  14. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    I subtracted the 25% from the spear's bonus. Shock doesn't exist in a vacuum, they're going to have combat I.

    In other words, I was doing it for a combat I shock keshik or NC ATTACKING a spear, not defending against one.

    If you did the numbers correctly, I bet the odds look exactly the same in these calculations ;). However, the NC would be weaker defending obviously since its 0 xp flank I is wasted.
     
  15. oleg1

    oleg1 Chieftain

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    Yes, you are right. :blush:
     
  16. Killroyan

    Killroyan Deity

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    If you compare NC to Keshiks you could say the following:

    NC get 50% versus melee and flanking 1
    Keshiks get CII, a first strike and ignores terrain (I gave Keshiks 5 str too and that is boosted by CII to 6 str in comparisson)

    In that case I would know what I like more. Keshiks are so easy to rush with, better then NC imho
     
  17. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

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    NC are for whimps they have a higher chance of running away. True men die and don't flee.
     
  18. InvisibleStalke

    InvisibleStalke Emperor

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    They are. Musketeers are awesome. Slightly weaker knights that can be drafted, can ignore walls, get terrain defenses and can keep pace with your cavaliers.

    Mobility is really powerful - it means fewer defenders to face and often the ability to prevent the counter unit from being constructed by pillaging key resources quickly.
     
  19. Link

    Link Scarves

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    RTW says that they are javelin cav.
     

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