NWolfNES I: The Greenskins, home edition

From Chill...
To Stoll

Well, look elsewhere boss. I can't even shoot an arrow straight 50% of the time. Maybe when i know what i am doing...?
 

Planned on posting it into NES'es development but decided not to.
EDIT: Even small correction or say if it is good/bad/meh is helpful.

Spoiler :

Hello, I am asking help with NWolfNES I. NWolfNES I is roleplay mixed together with village(es) and/or faction management. It has survived for 5 updates but ruleset needs to be more defined for next updates.

But basic ruleset I've been using now:
Every player controls one immortal orc:
1) Every immortal orc has popularity stats among factions (fishermen, crafters, warriors etc.).
2) Every immortal orc has personal property (like leather armor, bag full of pearls) and personal skills (like basic fighting, basic crafting)
3) Every immortal orc has 2 "actions" every turn to do something (go fishing, learn crafting, train, participate battle).
4) Every immortal who has followers gains third action that focuses on followers control.

Until now I've been doing fine without economical system, but I want to bring in gold and personal property into this NES, so player could choose if he wants to be a hero, village leader, major land owner or whatever. In theory everyone would gain control of a village or few by update 15 (assuming this NES survives that long). Right now players and villagers (NPCs) have been working under "communism-ideal" like structure, but they've been making contacts with outside world and gained knowledge of "Capitalism". And they want to use this knowledge.

So, every players has 2 actions, what to do and I'm planning to reward them with gold (and/or with skills/popularity). So, My idea of economical system is following:

Value some actions with certain amount of gold. Examples:

Woodwork (chopping, carrying to lumbermill and cutting): average 3 gold
Working on construction: Average 2 gold
Farm-work: Average 3 gold (2 gold during summer)
Hunting: From 1-4 gold

Player controlled orc skills will increase /decrease wage for works they do. I assume that players will automatically pay for food, rent and taxes, so I don't need complicated income-taxes-rent-food calculations and pay for work is simple profit not actual pay-costs calculation.

Players could increase their income by building up followers(and giving them tasks), founding businesses, building new villages or whatever.

Current Village contains about 200-250 people. If I tax every person with 1 gold/head, village will gain roughly 200 gold per turn. (You do not have to "pay" taxes, it's done automatically as players character will probably work enough to buy food and pay rent/taxes). I am unsure if that tax rate is good enough and how prices should go.

Village itself is like a large business - it buys food and stores it, collects taxes and pays for people working for village. That means that 200 gold we gained before is only net profit, not everything village has/had.

I don't want to price things too highly or make them too cheap. Commoner immortal should not be able to buy himself large house while elite merchant should have no problems with that.

If I price things using following scheme:

Random Working Action: 1-4 gold
Work that needs to be done during current season: +2 gold
Immortals knowledge * wage: none (0,75x), basic (1x), advanced (2x), expert (3x) master (5x)
+ Dice Roll

So that means:
Action 1: Farming during spring for immortal that knows "basic planting" and rolled 4 would earn: (4+2)*1+4= 10 gold (standard wage + extra for season)*basic knowledge + roll.

While farming during summer for simple commoner who rolled 2 would earn:
4 * 0,75 + 2 = 5 gold

Fishing for advanced spear fishing, basic fishing with net, advanced fishing with traps, for person who rolled 3 would earn:

3 * 2 * 1 * 2 + 3 = 15 gold

Same thing for person who knows only basic fishing and rolled 3:
3* 1 +3 = 6 gold

---------------------------------

I want houses to be buy-able and have 3 different sizes:
Buying covers costs of construction (workers, materials, tools, taxes etc.)

Small (fits 10-15 orcs sleeping side by side)
Medium (fits 40 orcs sleeping side by side)
Large (fits 80 orcs sleeping side by side)

Every house needs to designed or redesigned for certain purpose. One house can have only one purpose - crafters house will contain tools and equipment for crafters.

Out of my head I'm thinking:
Small house: 50 gold
Medium house: 80 gold
Large house: 110 gold
Shrine: 30 gold

Designing house for certain purpose: 20 gold (unless said otherwise, sleeping bags for houses would be 5 gold). Luxurious (re)design would cost 20% of house+current design price.

Is this too high/low ?
----------

I also want characters to be able to buy something off the traders and sell something to traders (who travel regularly through villages) or to village itself.

I Imagine weapons and tools rental (to practice with) be 1/10th of buying value(round up), unless said otherwise (weapons and armor are free during siege for an example)


Short Sword: 20 gold
Long Sword: 30 gold
Chain mail: 50 gold
Tools/traps: 15 gold
Spear: 10 gold

Broken: 0,5 - very low: 0,75 - low: 1 - medium: 1,5 - high: 2,5 - legendary: 5

So med long sword would cost: 30*1,5= 45 gold
broken spear would cost: 10*0,5= 5 gold
med spear would cost: 1,5*10= 15 gold

Old mechanism would still work - you do an action to fix an item and you have a chance to fix that item. Money would basically be fourth action, like instead of Action: Chop wood
Action 2: Fix broken sword
Followers: Do as I do

You'd have
Action: Chop wood
Action: train in training grounds with broken sword
Followers: Do as I do
Buy: Ask crafters to fix sword for X cost

How much should fixing stuff cost?

Is this all too complicated?

There are better number crunchers than I am so :)


Immac said:
From Chill...
To Stoll

Well, look elsewhere boss. I can't even shoot an arrow straight 50% of the time. Maybe when i know what i am doing...?

LOL at remember Arrow-in-Stolls-b*tt-situation ?
 
...economy...

I like the idea, though it's hard to say how it will work out in practice. This is where thought experiments come in.
Spoiler Alice's House :

Immortal "Alice" knows nothing about crafting. Alice decides to do commercial crafting (assuming base value of 3), and she is perfectly average (i.e. always rolls a 3.5). Assuming her skill 'levels up' every other turn, she will make:

(.75)(3)+3.5= 5.75 in first and second turn
(1)(3)+3.5= 6.5 in third and fourth turn
(2)(3)+3.5= 9.5 in the fifth and sixth turn
(3)(3)+3.5= 12.5 in the 7th and 8th turn
(5)(3)+3.5= 18.5 in the 9th and 10th turn

Alice is a very good saver, so she doesn't spend any profit for ten turns. This leaves her with a grand total of 105.5 gold in 10 turns, almost enough to buy a large house. So, a perfectly average orc can buy a house in 10 turns. Alternatively, she could buy a legendary short sword, or medium quality chain mail and a low long sword.


This seems balanced, and as the mod, you have an 'invisible hand' to adjust supply and demand if things get out of whack.

One thing I like about your system, although I don't know if it is intentional or not, is that warriors don't get a salary. They have to fight and kill for their keep. Case in point, the 'Gor warriors from the battle of many broken bones all got about ~50g in loot, although a smart warrior wouldn't trade his chainmail for a house, so they have different rewards and different priorities.

One unrelated question: did the warriors gain any skills from the battle? It seems that fighting live enemies would be more instructive than working in a practice field.
 
One unrelated question: did the warriors gain any skills from the battle? It seems that fighting live enemies would be more instructive than working in a practice field.

I thought that too but more in line with this thought process: MOAR XP! WHERE'S MY ARCHERY SKILL UPZ UPZ UPZ?!?!?
 
Ask BirdJag, he might be able to come up with some excel spreadsheets which would make an economy possible.
 
I like the idea, though it's hard to say how it will work out in practice. This is where thought experiments come in.
No wonder you're so good in ImmacuNES! You're cheating as you are using your math skillz!!12324! Thanks for helping me out here!

Alice's House
Immortal "Alice" knows nothing about crafting. Alice decides to do commercial crafting (assuming base value of 3), and she is perfectly average (i.e. always rolls a 3.5). Assuming her skill 'levels up' every other turn, she will make:

(.75)(3)+3.5= 5.75 in first and second turn
(1)(3)+3.5= 6.5 in third and fourth turn
(2)(3)+3.5= 9.5 in the fifth and sixth turn
(3)(3)+3.5= 12.5 in the 7th and 8th turn
(5)(3)+3.5= 18.5 in the 9th and 10th turn

Alice is a very good saver, so she doesn't spend any profit for ten turns. This leaves her with a grand total of 105.5 gold in 10 turns, almost enough to buy a large house. So, a perfectly average orc can buy a house in 10 turns. Alternatively, she could buy a legendary short sword, or medium quality chain mail and a low long sword.

Correct, assuming Alice does one action per turn, gains no extra income from followers (followers will do as their master does) and does not roll 6 - what will probably mean more gold, items, skills or whatever.

10 turns is bit much, I imagine one hard-working orc could buy a house in 5-6 turns.

So, how to solve this problem?
Increase wages by half? To say average pay onto 6 gold and seasonal work to 8 gold?


(.75)(6)+3.5= 8 in first and second turn
(.75)(6)+3.5= 8 in second turn
(1)(6)+3.5= 9.5 in third fourth turn
(2)(6)+3.5= 15,5 in fourth turn
(3)(6)+3.5= 15,5 in fifth turn

Alice earns 56,5 gold in 5 turns.

This is assuming Alice does one action per turn and she has no followers. If she has some followers, they'll probably increase her income by some ratio (What should this ratio be ... 1/5 (15,5 = 3 gold per follower)?).


One thing I like about your system, although I don't know if it is intentional or not, is that warriors don't get a salary

I assume practicing/training does not have wage, but everything else has. Warriors who train don't get salary, warriors who work as guards get average salary + extra for skills.


They have to fight and kill for their keep. Case in point, the 'Gor warriors from the battle of many broken bones all got about ~50g in loot, although a smart warrior wouldn't trade his chainmail for a house, so they have different rewards and different priorities.
Ugag gains: (Med) iron shield and (Med) iron chainmail

Chain Mail: 50*1,5 =75 gold
Med Iron Shield: (say shield costs 25 gold) 25*1,5= 37,5 gold

So Ugag earned: 75+37,5= 112,5 gold from this loot.

Chill Bill looted: (Med) Short sword and a (Med) Leather armor, lets say that leather armor costs 25 clan coins/gold: 25*1,5= 37,5 ~38 + 20*1,5=30 = 68 gold from raid.

Just for reference, you guys rolled loot 3.

This is not good as this means highest value weapons will be picked just to trade them in for what player wants + extra gold. Maybe I should give every warrior some random item + gold for participating battle (I won't do this for Battle of Many Broken Bones)?


One unrelated question: did the warriors gain any skills from the battle? It seems that fighting live enemies would be more instructive than working in a practice field.
2 respect military, 1 respect commoners, 2 fame.

True, you did not gain skills, but you all also got battle experience (that is hidden stat). As you probably understand faction respect is rather hard to get. Fame = How famous your orc is. Higher fame means more followers (only Aiken tried to recruit followers, but he rolled one or two and gained none). It also means more people will listen to you and you may lose fame but not respect when you roll 1 or 2 during an action. It's kinda hard to lead an army or become village overseer when you are not known among villagers. Stoll (2 fame) could have gained 2-4 followers when using one action to recruit followers while non famous orc would gain 1-2 followers.

Immaculate said:
I thought that too but more in line with this thought process: MOAR XP! WHERE'S MY ARCHERY SKILL UPZ UPZ UPZ?!?!?

I did not think this one battle would have thought orcs much - IM(H)O 1 hour of battling should not be equal to 3 months of rough training - unless you take part of siege or invasion/defense that spans over multiple battles... Everyone also gained 1-3 battle experience (it's in my spreadsheet but not in your stats. Battle experience was calculated according to what you rolled).

Abaddon said:
Ask BirdJag, he might be able to come up with some excel spreadsheets which would make an economy possible.
Thanks, but economy is already possible (everyone get wage and can buy stuff, we just have to find good enough wage rate and tweak prices. I can work with spreadsheets (so far, all your stats are in spreadsheet). Besides I already got Immaculate and RPAdvantage who are rather good with spreadsheets, whom I can ask help from.
 
Yay for spreadsheets! Northen, I encourage you to take your time with the economy as I won't be available much this weekend for NESsing :D

I'd be happy to look over any spreadsheets you have in the works though.
 
Tally shall come up soon. You all should be ashamed of yourself for being so disorganized and allowing me so much power in deciding what to build because of your lack of clear votes on what the heck to build :mad:
 
That is why builders did not build large houses only (as you wanted).
 
Alright, alright, I think I got it all...

Spoiler Tally :


Building Proposals:
Shaman Hut: Stoll, Ugag, Magog, Gaarth, Chill Bill, Xialo. Passes, the small hut we have in possession will be upgraded to suit the shaman's needs.

Tannery: Ugag, Chill Bill, Gaarth.

Question to Host: How large would this Tannery building have to be?

Upgrade Training Ground: Stoll, Gurtak.

Butcher Shop: Ugag, Gaarth

Lumbermill: Chill Bill

Carpenter's House: Chill Bill

Sheep/Animal Husbandry
Help with sheeps: Gartog and Stoll, some of the commoners should assist Gartog with the sheep before the sheeps die...

Hunters Capture Pigs: Gartog, Gaarth, Ugag. (Can a wild boar be tamed though? I await eagerly for the result)

Miners

Develop Mine Discovered: Chill Bill, Gaarth, Ugag

Salt survey: Chill Bill.

Joining the Horde:
Aye: Chill Bill, Gurtak, Xialo

Farmers
Give Farmers wooden chests: Ugag, Gaarth

Cultivate more land: Chill Bill

Fisherman
Explore new fishing site: Chill Bill

Proposal: Give Fisherman fishing traps: Ugag, Gartog

Warriors

Rest: Stoll, Ugag, Gaarth

Train: Chill Bill

New Training Ground Gartak, Stoll

Craftsman

Focus on building new tools for Builders: Chill Bill

Commoners:

Most should help farmers: Chill Bill

Some should help wood cutters Ugag, Gaarth

Some should train as new builders: Chill Bill
 
To Overseer:

EDIT-Ugag not remember voting for what in tally. Ugag must have hit head.

Ugag want sha-mans hut, tannery, and training grounds.

Ugag think commoners should help farmers, lots of planting needs done.

Otherwise, tally okay.

OOC:
Chain Mail: 50*1,5 =75 gold
Med Iron Shield: (say shield costs 25 gold) 25*1,5= 37,5 gold

So Ugag earned: 75+37,5= 112,5 gold from this loot.

Chill Bill looted: (Med) Short sword and a (Med) Leather armor, lets say that leather armor costs 25 clan coins/gold: 25*1,5= 37,5 ~38 + 20*1,5=30 = 68 gold from raid.

Just for reference, you guys rolled loot 3.

This is not good as this means highest value weapons will be picked just to trade them in for what player wants + extra gold. Maybe I should give every warrior some random item + gold for participating battle (I won't do this for Battle of Many Broken Bones)?
Only foolish warriors trade their weapons for trinkets. However, NESing is a game of minmaxers, so how about this: when a warrior trains with a weapon or armor, they have a chance (roll a 6?) to become attached to their gear. So, for example, Ugag's Med Iron Chainmail becomes Ugag's Comfortable Med Iron Chailmail, which acts as an extra level of quality, but only for Ugag. Thus, it has more worth to the user than to a caravan.

Also, we are going to have to arm our followers, so that will discourage selling off too many goods. And I think Chill Bill made a good decision - weapons and armor are less about value than utility, and a scout in chainmail is a fairly poor scout.
 
Ugag think Gaarth's recommendation for the villagers duties is sound, and adds his support. Once trade caravan comes next season, then we should build specialized buildings.

I was basing your votes on this post, actually, I just made you agree with whatever Gaarth said.

I shall revise vote tally later this afternoon. I have a sore throat so I have some time...
 
Building Proposals:
Shaman Hut: Stoll, Ugag, Magog, Gaarth, Chill Bill, Xialo. Passes, the small hut we have in possession will be upgraded to suit the shaman's needs.

Tannery: Ugag, Chill Bill, Gaarth.

Question to Host: How large would this Tannery building have to be?

Upgrade Training Ground: Stoll, Gurtak. Chill votes against (this should not be done right away- its not a priority)

Butcher Shop: Ugag, Gaarth Chill votes against (this should not be done right away- its not a priority)


Lumbermill: Chill Bill

Carpenter's House: Chill Bill



Sheep/Animal Husbandry
Help with sheeps: Gartog and Stoll, some of the commoners should assist Gartog with the sheep before the sheeps die... Chill agrees.

Hunters Capture Pigs: Gartog, Gaarth, Ugag. (Can a wild boar be tamed though? I await eagerly for the result)



Miners

Develop Mine Discovered: Chill Bill, Gaarth, Ugag

Salt survey: Chill Bill.


Joining the Horde:
Aye: Chill Bill, Gurtak, Xialo



Farmers
Give Farmers wooden chests: Ugag, Gaarth Chill agrees.

Cultivate more land: Chill Bill


Fisherman
Explore new fishing site: Chill Bill

Proposal: Give Fisherman fishing traps: Ugag, Gartog Chill agrees.



Warriors

Rest: Stoll, Ugag, Gaarth change Chill’s vote to rest.

Train: Chill Bill change Chill’s vote to rest.

New Training Ground Gartak, Stoll



Craftsman

Focus on building new tools for Builders: Chill Bill



Commoners:

Most should help farmers: Chill Bill

Some should help wood cutters Ugag, Gaarth Chill votes against (this should not be done right away- farming, increasing our capacity to build/craft is more important.

Some should train as new builders: Chill Bill
 
I have not even yet finished updating first page, I'm being lazy, sorry. But Seon, you are awesome!


Question to Host: How large would this Tannery building have to be?
Small

. (Can a wild boar be tamed though? I await eagerly for the result)
Yes, you could tame them.

Also, we are going to have to arm our followers, so that will discourage selling off too many goods. And I think Chill Bill made a good decision - weapons and armor are less about value than utility, and a scout in chainmail is a fairly poor scout.
Followers will rent their armor and swords from village inventory (or posses them), if their leader has extra set of [whatever], they'll use that [whatever]
 
Can I help try to tame the pigs? I want to restore my reputation in everyones eyes.
 
yeah, that'll help.
 
I am going to be away for about a week. I may or may not be away from the internet. I may not be available during this time; please do not think i am no longer interested in this NES.

I believe Northen, that you have my orders.
 
Alright, alright, I think I got it all...

Spoiler Tally :


Building Proposals:
Shaman Hut: Stoll, Ugag, Magog, Gaarth, Chill Bill, Xialo. Passes, the small hut we have in possession will be upgraded to suit the shaman's needs.

Tannery: Ugag, Chill Bill, Gaarth, Ugag.

Question to Host: How large would this Tannery building have to be?

Upgrade Training Ground: Stoll, Gurtak, Ugag. Chill Bill Votes Against

Butcher Shop: Ugag, Gaarth. Chill Bill Votes Against

Lumbermill: Chill Bill

Carpenter's House: Chill Bill

Sheep/Animal Husbandry
Help with sheeps: Gartog and Stoll, Chill Bill. Some of the commoners should assist Gartog with the sheep before the sheeps die...

Hunters Capture Pigs: Gartog, Gaarth, Ugag. (Can a wild boar be tamed though? I await eagerly for the result)

Miners

Develop Mine Discovered: Chill Bill, Gaarth, Ugag

Salt survey: Chill Bill.

Joining the Horde:
Aye: Chill Bill, Gurtak, Xialo

Farmers
Give Farmers wooden chests: Ugag, Gaarth, Chill Bill

Cultivate more land: Chill Bill, Ugag

Fisherman
Explore new fishing site: Chill Bill

Proposal: Give Fisherman fishing traps: Ugag, Gartog, Chill Bill

Warriors

Rest: Stoll, Ugag, Gaarth, Chill Bill

New Training Ground Gartak, Stoll, Ugag. Chill Bill Votes Against

Craftsman

Focus on building new tools for Builders: Chill Bill

Commoners:

Most should help farmers: Chill Bill

Some should help wood cutters Ugag, Gaarth. Chill Bill Votes Against

Some should train as new builders: Chill Bill


I believe that in summary...

Builders: Will upgrade the small house within the village into a Shaman Hut, Build a Tannery, upgrade the Training Ground, and finally build the Carpenter's House and the Lumbermill if we have enough resources and time left.

Craftsmen: shall build some tools for builders and miners and build fish traps for the Fishermen. In spare time, they may repair some of the damaged loot we got from the humanz

Miners: Most shall develop the new mine discovered, and some shall survey the land for any sign of salt.

Hunters: shall sneak into the caves, kill the boars, and retrieve its young so that we can raise them as pets livestock. Also resetting traps may be a good idea.

Farmers: shall get some wooden chests to store their equipment in, and also shall be allowed to cultivate new plots of land.

Warriors: They are to rest... Healthy ones are to accompany the miners and the lumbermen.

Fishermen: Use the fishtrap.

Commoners: Most should help farmers cultivate new land, Some should help Gartog save the sheepies, some should train as new builders, and some should help the woodcutters carry wood.


Stoll Orders:
1: Study how the craftsmen make various tools, and attempt to imitate the creation of several of the easier tools.
2: Observe the work going on inside the healer's hut. Observe what herbs are used to treat what wounds and assisst whenever possible using my knowledge of herbalism.
 
@RP
/me likes that blog

@Everyone

First Page should be updated

Orders Due: Saturday
 
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