[BTS] NZ's Shadow Game - Immortal Zulu

[soundjata]

IDK about the worker steal option as well. Risk/Reward?

Among the suggestions given by Sampsa, my vote is:
1. Settler size 1
2. Grow to 2 building 2 warriors (see Fippy)
3. Worker steal experiment (max hammers on warrior)

 

[Fippy]

Ran a quick test game
Size 1 settler takes 14t.

Size 2 takes 19t, but we'd have a city that can work cows & floodplains farm. At size 1 you'd then have to pick between those.
+ ofc 2 worker steal lurkers. It's also fun trying that..and reasonable on Immortal.

 

[sampsa]

Size 2 takes 19t, but we'd have a city that can work cows & floodplains farm. At size 1 you'd then have to pick between those.

Two size 1 cities also work cows and floodplain farm (which wins 22 from city center compared to a size 2 city). I guess your point is that a city working both grows faster. But okay now we are getting back to numbers that were already discussed and I have nothing really to add to what I previously said.

Maybe I misunderstand, but it seems people intuitively think that size 1 cities are bad, but it's simply not true.

 

[Fippy]

Nope i don't think size 1 cities are bad..they all start there.
Was just writing down why a 5t settler delay isn't so bad compared to what we get with a size 2 plan.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

So that's how the aggressive trait is used? Stealing workers?

 

[pigswill]

Sounds good to me (if it works). Ultimately its for NZ to decide.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

IDK about the worker steal option as well. Risk/Reward?

To be fair, all lines are pretty risky.

Size 1 settler : what's the chance Sury hasn't settled his 2nd city by turn 27 ? Pretty low.
What's the chance his 2nd blocks the Eastern plains hills ? Pretty big.

Worker steal : Triggering a close by neighbour who could have 3-4 improved tiles to spam archers or even BFC copper/horses, what could go wrong ?
I mean, even stealing on T10 can backfire. I'd like to see it, though. Maybe you'll DoW to stop his settler party

gl gl

 

[BornInCantaloup]

So that's how the aggressive trait is used? Stealing workers?

No, it would normally be done with the starting unit, when it is a warrior. This is when the AI is at its weakest and the risk of retaliation is the lowest.
Stealing multiple workers would usually involve a Woodsman II warrior that can move 2 tiles (the AI doesn't take the 2 move from WWII into consideration).
Barring that, you're only stealing the one worker. You're very much ruining relations with an AI and probably should have a plan to sue for peace. Some AIs cool down relatively easy, often times you need some war success like killing a Scout. In the meantime, it is very much a stake to try to choke them to prevent retaliation. Of course, the more developped they are, the more difficult it will be.
If they have roads and spare archers, they will strike back.

I guess the rice tile is a nice target for harrassment if Sury settles 1S . Otherwise, all we're seeing are forest tiles.

 

[drewisfat]

If you steal one worker usually a busy worker next to it won't react. Can't tell you why, but that's how I usually end up with multiple worker steals. Of course, excess defending units can react, so even if captured that second worker can get recaptured next turn.
I'm not opposed to worker stealing, just think it has a better risk/return at the very start - we could have grown on warriors instead of worker first. I also prefer to grow the city a bit over grabbing a size 1 settler, because as BiC pointed out if we lose that spot we don't have a timely backup (other spots require TW or fishing). The thing is we've already picked AH first, and that mostly made sense to me assuming size 1 settler.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

The thing is we've already picked AH first, and that mostly made sense to me assuming size 1 settler.

Would you have considered delaying/skipping AH for faster Bronze + Pottery ?
I'm happy with AH first. To me, the decision point is whether or not to farm or pasture first. I agree that pasturing is more conducive to the early(est) settler (I haven't looked into size 2 settler much).
So, yes, at the very least, settler at size 1 is coherent with improving the cows first.
Overall, it's more important to adhere to one's plan than it is to have the perfect plan. With that in mind, I'd also reload the Ikhanda turn (not because of the Ikhanda itself but because you're not working the food while doing it). Turns are a precious resource and that one does not fit in any plan.

I haven't looked much into size 2 settler, so no opinion there.

 

[drewisfat]

Yes, but I have a general preference for not teching AH just for a plains cow. I think that's more stylistic than a 'mistake'. However, I definitely would have picked BW over AH if I wanted to grow to size 3-4 before going settler. That's a sidegrade improvement over a farmed FP, while adding a chop at the end to speed up the settler would definitely be beneficial. I agree that mixing and matching different good ideas can be worse than wholeheartedly committing to a bad gameplan like Sampsa's

Look at the bright side though. It's a great testament to civ 4 that a bunch of veterans can look at the same map and come up with different ideas on how to proceed.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Sorry things have been a bit crazy the last few days - will absorb everything, make my mind up and move forward in the next couple of days.