Obama Decides To Finally Sign UN Declaration of Indigenous Rights

[Tani Coyote]

I would think we wouldn't need a UN declaration to do this.

Natives deserve the same rights as everyone else, no more, no less.

Abolish the reservations and any special status they may have. Their culture should be protected from destruction, but trying to expand it and keep it alive should be a solely private matter.

Plenty of people support keeping culture alive with taxpayer dollars, my question: if it's so important to you, why not pay for it yourself?

 

[NovaKart]

At the time the Aztecs were conquered I think the Inquisition was going on in Spain or at least had been relatively recently. The Spanish had also enslaved the Tainos and the Guanche in the Canary Islands. I don't think they could claim any moral superiority over the Aztecs.

 

[NovaKart]

I would think we wouldn't need a UN declaration to do this.

Natives deserve the same rights as everyone else, no more, no less.

Abolish the reservations and any special status they may have. Their culture should be protected from destruction, but trying to expand it and keep it alive should be a solely private matter.

Plenty of people support keeping culture alive with taxpayer dollars, my question: if it's so important to you, why not pay for it yourself?

I'm not sure about this but I think the reservations and special status were given to them by treaties signed with the US government a long time ago so America would have to go back on those treaties now if it wanted to change.

 

[Yeekim]

The closest Indian tribe to me gets a per person annual stipend of $1,000,000+.

Every one of them gets over one million bucks per year? Seriously? Anything to back it up?

If the Native American system did not have a system of owning land in some way shape or form, then why did tribes and nations routinely fight amongst each other with brutality that would make and contemporary European blush? What were they fighting over?

You don't need to fight "over" something. Warfare can be entirely ritual pursuit, an end to itself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endemic_warfare

 

[civver_764]

Why are you guys talking about the "indians" as a single entity?

They were spread out over an entire continent.

Some were chill...others weren't.

End of.

 

[Tani Coyote]

I'm not sure about this but I think the reservations and special status were given to them by treaties signed with the US government a long time ago so America would have to go back on those treaties now if it wanted to change.

You are aware that breaking our treaties with Native Americans is a good old-fashioned American pasttime, right?

Plus, it's merely to integrate everything nicely within society. We all get equal rights and privileges. Sounds like a good ideal to me; privilege based on one's heritage is probably the worst kind possible.

We would need to put programs in place to integrate them into society, of course(since the reservations' many special rights would be gone), but we should do that for all of the downtrodden.

 

[NovaKart]

I figured someone would mention that. It sounds cute but what the US did in the 19th century isn't what it wants to do now. From what I've heard from people who have gone to reservations is that the Indians aren't too interested in integrating.

 

[Tani Coyote]

I figured someone would mention that. It sounds cute but what the US did in the 19th century isn't what it wants to do now.

I'm sure a lot of people will soon comment that we are far from being saints. Our good behavior is almost entirely done if it benefits us.

On the government's part anyway.

From what I've heard from people who have gone to reservations is that the Indians aren't too interested in integrating.

Considering the benefits they enjoy - I don't know the exact details on privileges, but I do know the gambling legalisation is generally very lucrative - of course they wouldn't be.

Of course, just as society shouldn't exist solely to benefit the majority, it shouldn't exist to benefit the few either. The reservations are an arbitrary privilege system, I feel.

To make matters easier, we could leave it to the states to dissolve reservations on their territory or some such.

My main concern is what would happen if the reservations were dissolved. The legal gambling would surely vanish, hurting their pockets. We'd certainly need some safeguards in place to mitigate the shock therapy.

At the very least, their resistance makes more sense than Puerto Rico's inability to decide between independence or statehood.

 

[civver_764]

Indians have it pretty bad dude...lucrative is not the right word.

 

[Tani Coyote]

Indians have it pretty bad dude...lucrative is not the right word.

Gambling is a very nice niche to crawl into though. Hard to beat Vegas though.

That said, if they have it so bad, the solution is simple: the welfare state. Same as anyone else. Your heritage should not bestow upon you any unique privilege.

They should be able to get help from the state. They should be able to cling to the traditions they hold precious. They should have all the rights as anyone else. Getting a special status for your ethnic group should not be one of those rights, as we are all human and that is what matters.

And I say this with Ojibwe blood in me.

 

[amadeus]

Every one of them gets over one million bucks per year? Seriously? Anything to back it up?

Yes. This is a small tribe (300 or so members) that owns a very large casino and resort complex just outside the metro area here.

 

[NovaKart]

I get what you mean, it kind of annoys me too that some groups can get certain privileges but the Indian reservations are in many ways sovereign territory which is why they can make trade arrangements with foreign countries, build casinos, etc. It's part of the arrangement that was made between them and the US government long ago which at the time did not benefit them.

The welfare state is not a solution. At least now they are working for their income.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Its always heart warming to wake up and return to a thread to note your likely opponents failed to refute your position, but not content to simply leave the field or admit defeat just drop a few completely unsupported personal insults instead. Win win

And its heart warming to know that you keep coming here despite you prefering the kind of debates you get out of MS word.

 

[Tani Coyote]

the Indian reservations are in many ways sovereign territory which is why they can make trade arrangements with foreign countries, build casinos, etc. It's part of the arrangement that was made between them and the US government long ago which at the time did not benefit them.

Of course, we can change this at any time.

The reason we probably don't is it probably isn't worth it. While the casinos can be quite profitable in some cases, I doubt it pads their pockets enough to make them a serious political forces.

Never mind some people would surely defend the reservations, and so the possible loss in supporters isn't worth it.

That and of course, trying to catch all the people who'd fall through would be a nightmare. The status quo remains because it's convenient.

The welfare state is not a solution. At least now they are working for their income.

And what makes you think I wouldn't require that of them? I am advocating for equality, which includes equal responsibilities, which includes having to actually work and attempt to improve yourself to keep receiving benefits.

Until the mass mechanisation of labor, there's no excuse to not at least trying to get employed.

 

[NovaKart]

If the treaties are legal documents I don't see how the government can legally change them. Sure they did so in the past but I think the US government is held to greater accountability these days in regards to minorities. Also, not all reservations have casinos and some are poor and just try to eke out a living by selling trinkets.

 

[Tani Coyote]

If the treaties are legal documents I don't see how the government can legally change them.

If we found some obscure rule to overturn them it could be done in a heartbeat.

Or we could re-negotiate them in some manner. The problem with this is they're not willing to give up benefits. Therefore, some legal means has to be found to rule them invalid.

Now what that precedent would be, I have no idea.

Also, not all reservations have casinos and some are poor and just try to eke out a living by selling trinkets.

More reason to integrate them fully into our society so they can enjoy the costs - and benefits! - of it. The state, for instance, could invest in the ex-reservations to try and boost tourism and economic activity. In turn, the state could glean more tax revenue from them.

 

[ParkCungHee]

If we found some obscure rule to overturn them it could be done in a heartbeat.

Lets see, some obscure rule that lets a nation completely, and with any veneer of legality, negate dozens of seperate treaties signed over a span of decades...
I think if such a legal mechanism existed, somebody would have used that by now.

Or we could re-negotiate them in some manner. The problem with this is they're not willing to give up benefits.

Yes, I can't imagine why.
"We'd like you to give up what we promised you?"
"In exchange for...?"
"Nothing."
Totally unreasonable!

Therefore, some legal means has to be found to rule them invalid.

This is not how law works. You do not start with what you want happen, and then find the method by which it is legal. Something is or isn't legal.

More reason to integrate them fully into our society so they can enjoy the costs - and benefits! - of it. The state, for instance, could invest in the ex-reservations to try and boost tourism and economic activity. In turn, the state could glean more tax revenue from them.

And you've still failed to answer, why they should want to do this?

 

[naterator]

Of course, we can change this at any time.

In other words:
1) force unfavorable terms onto repressed minority
2) Wait until those deals start to look less unfavorable
3) Renege on said deals in order to impose new, unfavorable terms.
4) Return to step 2

Sounds like par for the course in America-Native relations.

Now what that precedent would be, I have no idea.

The precedent set by every other treaty ever signed between America and a native tribe, perhaps? The phrase you are searching for is "manifest destiny". For precedent, see the Black hills of South Dakota, et al.

 

[choxorn]

You are aware that breaking our treaties with Native Americans is a good old-fashioned American pasttime, right?

Ah, yes, but we've moved on from ignoring treaties with Native Americans to ignoring the Geneva Convention and the UN.

 

[Shadylookin]

If the treaties are legal documents I don't see how the government can legally change them. Sure they did so in the past but I think the US government is held to greater accountability these days in regards to minorities. Also, not all reservations have casinos and some are poor and just try to eke out a living by selling trinkets.

Treaties have no real special significance in American law. Any law that comes after it can violate it's terms and nullify it.