Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by autopsy-turvey, Jan 29, 2009.
I find the Kurio worldspell a tad weak as well. But then I never go for cultural victory.
I don't find Stasis to be very annoying on any speed in a strategic sense, but being locked into 60 turns of inactivity on a map with considerable turn resolution time or, heaven forbid, in FF, is an altogether more frightening animal!
Kurio worldspell might be good if you can't get religion to your settlements, and there's iron JUST out of reach.
The civilopedea only say +1 attack strength and I didn't see anything on the mouse-over tool tips to indicate that it'd give any other bonuses.
Yes, the civilopedia is not very useful as the infos are either outdated or scattered throughout the whole civilopedia. Use xienwolf's manual http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=265888 if you want to explore the possibilities the game offers you.
It does not really help you for cultural victory as it's a one time shot and the it adds to your cities is rather low (usually you have much more than 300 PER TURN if you go for cultural victory). It's quite useful if you have many settlements as those can't get without it, but nevertheless you are right. It's among the weak world spells.
The Kurio worldspell, while far from overpowered, is excellent if you are crowded for space in the early game. Send out a settler, build a new city, pop it, and boom, you've got a huge territory advantage.
Thanks a ton! Now that I have a better understanding of this world spell I love it. In my current price game I got 20 cities before casting GoN and moved all 20 hammers to the capital. Which is now cranking out hammers and GE's like there's no tomorrow.
If we took every world spell out of the game that any one person found annoying, we'd not have any. Every single worldspell can potentially cause another player/civ distress. Why shouldn't they?
What's next? Are we to take away the horses from the Hippus palace because it's annoying having to deal with Tasunke rampaging all over our lands? Or perhaps we should bar the Amurites from having fire mana because their firebows are just so aggravating to have to deal with.
Nowhere in the op's posts do I see any real justification for making any kind of changes. All I see is "I don't like this so it must be changed."
The fact is when I play the Illians or the Calabim, I most certainly will be using those spells to intentionally aggravate the other players because you can count on me using them when they will do others the most harm and me the most good. That is how it should be, and I have to respectfully disagree with the op and I think these were very well designed.
The same holds true for the Calabim worldspell. You can count on me using that early when you are trying to build workers and settlers. The advantage you get from the quick growth and the other players sudden slowdown can be tremendous. Sure it is annoying to have it used on you, but no more so than say Raging Seas, which I noticed you neglected to mention.
In fact, this talk of making Stasis require Philosophy is a bit distressing. If you're going to make one world spell require a tech, you should make them all require a tech.
I know everyone uses these world spells differently, but I prefer to use Stasis at the very beginning of the game so as to get a nice jump start on research. On marathon speed I can easily get a one tech lead on every other civ in the game and make them much more susceptible to both an early rush on my part and barbs invading them as well.
More on topic though, I'd like to hear some of the op's reasons why these spells should go other than the fact that he dislikes them. Design-wise what is wrong with them?
I mean, seriously, the fact that you have to wait a whole what 20 turns to continue your production can't be all that bad. Try dealing with 60 turns of no production on marathon. Now that is brutal, especially in the late game when the AI uses it while you are in a war and needing reinforcements badly. Those are the times you wish you picked the Bannor and were running crusade.
What suggestions do you have as far as replacement world spells? Generally criticisms are much easier to accept, no matter how poorly presented, when there is something constructive about them, so share some of your ideas about fixing these if you think they need it so badly.
My suggestion is to check the box that removes all the world spells, or just learn to overcome them.
I get hating River of Blood and Stasis, but hahaha, Samhain? What the hell?
The luchiurp spell was changed to have a tech requirement because it was considered too strong when used on turn 1, I think they've made that change with another world spell too.
I have not played the Luchuirp in a while, so that might explain why the Luchuirp typically do poorly in my games. It's just another handicap for the AI to overcome.
I have seen the Luchuirp ruling the game. Also I don't remember the AI casting the worldspell early once it had no tech requirement.
Probably a coincidence, the spell change was for human players using it to grab +2 hammers from the start. From personal experience, I've never seen the AI use it in this way. Actually the only worldspell I regularly see used early by the AI is for the horde.
I say to all the enemy civs: bring it on! let's dance! cast your worldspells and I'll cast mine!
They're fun and usually non-decisive; esp. as the AI doesn't cast 'em all that well. I've seen Sanctuary cast when the Elohim had no invaders to eject or Basium cast Divine Retribution without even attempting to attack the wounded demon and undead forces.
But the option to turn 'em all off is cool too.
I dont see a problem with the calabaim world spell, its actually pretty weak. If they cast it early just have your capitol build something other then a settler/worker for the couple turns it takes to get your population back. And then laugh because they wasted their spell for +2 pop in a couple of cities that they cant feast on yet, possibly cant even whip, and definatly could have just grown anyway.
As for stasis... 60 turns of nothing but chasing away goblins on marathon is just brutal Still though, on normal speeds it kindof makes up for Samhain, which is bad for all the AI's and usually not so bad for the human. I dont really get the point in that ritual, except for combining it with stasis and a surprise attack on someone.
IIRC "Gifts of Notuella"(or whatever the name), gives you one gold hammer in each city. So, if you use it on turn one, you just get 1 hammer. How can this be too powerful?
- The first ritual for Illians is useless to them. Wasted production.
- The Illian world spell is just annoying. Yawning for 20 turns isn't fun. I understand we want diversity, and the theme of cold/freeze... but another solution more interesting and less disrupting for gameplay would be better.
- The Rites of Oghma is -IMHO- bugged or mulfunctioning. Every single time I built it, WAY more mana nodes spawned in other civs' lands than mine. I hope this is addressed and not dismissed because "the code says percentage is this and that™", as I ofted read on these boards. The code is not The Bible (and even if, it would be wrong ), and the RNG isn't random. The experience I have is that it works exactly the contrary as it should, hence it's annoying.
As for the Luchuirp worldspell, it was overpowered with Adv. Start. Still, having Masonry as a requirement does make sense.
Stasis is fine. Sure, its powerful and annoying if you're on the wrong end of it, but its certainly not unbalanced.
But I had a great idea to make Samhain useful. Perhaps the hammer costs and prerequiste tech should be changed as it would be a bargain, and I'm not sure if it can even be done in the code. Quite simply, if Mokka is alive the Illians are at peace with the barbs (but can declare war as per usual), but unlike barb leaders, opponents can cancel this bonus just by killing Mokka. As soon as Mokka dies, the Illians are at war with barbs again.
Also seems weird Mokka has Channeling 2, but never gets any spells. Perhaps he should be allowed to pick spell spheres that the Illians control? Once again, not sure if its possible in the code.
Ah, yes! I hadn't thought of advanced start, because I never use it. But now that you said it, it does make sense.
Many people complain about yawning for 20 turns. If you are in a war, it is definatly not a time to yawn, but to thing of every trick possible to save your skin! or, if you are on the offence, a time to take advandage of the fact your opponent cannot replace his casaulties(neither can you, of course).
If you are not, it is certainly a time to scout and decide your next moves.
This sounds good. It would give the Illians a little more security in exploring and expanding early on.
Both of your suggestions are possible in the code, if, and only if, Kael(aka, the Supreme God of FFH) finds the suggestions fit with what he has in mind for the Illian-related lore, or if he thinks this ritual needs a boost.
I sometimes kind of like Stasis because it lets my workers catch up on building enough improvements for every population point. vv
Separate names with a comma.