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OCC Club Mk 3 Game 1: Suleiman

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by happyturtle, Jun 9, 2012.

  1. happyturtle

    happyturtle Mrs GrumpyOldCivver

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    860
    In general, I don't worry much about defense until mid-game. It's fairly easy (at least on Monarch) to keep the AIs warring with each other and not with you. Of course this means giving in to a lot of demands, particularly from your nearest neighbours, but if I can keep them off my back, I don't worry about the ones who are farther away. The AI sucks at doing long distance warfare, and doesn't keep reinforcements coming, so it's easy to shatter their stack and then get them to take peace.

    Library? As soon as I get writing, provided I have a worker, a granary, and enough troops to keep off barbs. Those take priority. But the library is pretty close behind that.

    For this particular game:
    Spoiler :
    I didn't really build an army for defensive purposes till I had Janissaries. The library I built as soon as the granary was done. Being in a corner with near neighbours meant I didn't have barb problems at all.
     
  2. stimpyhoek

    stimpyhoek Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2010
    Messages:
    171
    wish i made the mids........

    i completely forgot

    forgot to trade too since i normally only play online

    its fun tho

    i nearly forgot to change religion too b4 i got murdered

    i just got the forest thingy with all my forests makin scientists now

    gonna have to be space

    all the ai r in a huge war even tho most of em r in same religion

    i traded em everything so they all near rifles now

    will prob be space in the 1900s but i aint a time freak, the win will do me
     
  3. stimpyhoek

    stimpyhoek Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2010
    Messages:
    171
    Spoiler :
    it gets harder every turn now. the diplo is a nightmare. i managed to gift astro to justinian, felt like everything was awesome when i got my def pact. later i give him assembly line just to make me feel safe. a turn later he declares and ruins my pact. so then i try to suck up to gilgamesh thinking if i go monarchy it will put me over the top and get a def pact...he changes out of religion........ so now cyrus hates me and i cant get a def pact with 1 of the big boys.....all the smaller civs r getting eaten leaving 4 monsters and me. and oh yeah nice touch with no oil....:blush: I have started building spaceship tho ill be dead soon
     
  4. stimpyhoek

    stimpyhoek Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2010
    Messages:
    171
    Spoiler :
    got lucky.... was sucking up to ram justy and gilga... cyrus still hated me. then they all wamted to kill cyrus. was a messed up war with helicopters and jets and mech infantry. i did manage to buy oil off justinian for 53 gold a turn but then making units seemed pointless anyway. if someone wanted composites they got composites. i launched with 1 engine 4 casing and 4 thrusters. was super lucky coz gilgamesh could have killed me any time he wanted. never got anyone to friendly except nr the end so only 1 quick def pact which was worthless.
     
  5. stimpyhoek

    stimpyhoek Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2010
    Messages:
    171
    after i finished my game i read other ppls games and yes..........
    Spoiler :
    oracling civil service is a game changer

    its 1 ad i got g library, parthenon, oxford
    am making hanging gardens
    have researched nationalism
    am 7 turns from lib to get constitution

    i have 1 worker

    its MASSIVELY superior to my 1st go
     
  6. Silverbow

    Silverbow Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2010
    Messages:
    425
    1852 immortal space

    Spoiler :

    I forgot to turn off events again. Sigh. Didn't get one until fairly late though, so I just went with it. They didn't do anything relevant whatsoever in the end.

    I got all the early wonders I wanted (SH, GW, Oracle, Mids, TGL), libbed Nationalism, teched MT and signed DP with Justinian. I was pleased or friendly with basically everyone ('cept Izzy, who was vassal of Ragnar and thus irrelevant). I eventually formed a PA with Justinian, built UN but couldn't quite win diplo (about 30 votes short - Cyrus, Ram & Ham voted for us). So I went to space. Teched happily ahead, even built the Net, and then as we were teching the final tech (composites), Ragnar and his vassals Toku & Izzy decided to attack us. Hammy was our vassal, Cyrus in DP and with nukes not banned, the world descended into madness. Toku nuked Cyrus but didn't capture anything, while Cyrus took a chunk out of Izzy. I bribed Ram on Ragnar, and he nuked the hell out of him and crushed and vassaled him. Meanwhile the ship finally completed and I could launch.



     
  7. cas

    cas Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2002
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    1,104
    Location:
    Phoenix
    writing/library asap other than mining/food tech. You can usually build worker and 2-3 fogbusting warriors before getting to writing. If I'm in the middle of a lonely expanse of land I will delay the library a bit to build fogbusting warriors...depending on the difficulty level.

    Defense ? The best defense in OCC is manipulating the diplo. Really, diplo is the only defense in many games because your power rating is going to be small compared to the AI. Sometimes you can't get +diplo fast enough to fend off an early BC DoW. Once in a while diplo breaks down mid-game and you have to build units. If an AI comes after you late-game...even behind in tech...you are pretty much screwed regardless of your defense...unless you have nukes.

    cas
     
  8. happyturtle

    happyturtle Mrs GrumpyOldCivver

    Joined:
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    Gah! 12 turns to go till the spaceship arrives, and someone built the Manhattan Project.

    Pleasedon'tnukeme.... :eek:
     
  9. coanda

    coanda Emperor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2009
    Messages:
    1,603
    If someone is less than Pleased with you, spend anything (or everything) to bribe someone else into attacking them right now. That war won't be over before the SS arrives. If they're at Pleased or better, wait 2 turns then ask for a gift of 1 gold for a 10-turn binding peace treaty.

    If you have no trade-able techs, no gold, and people are pissed with you... cross your fingers and hope for the best, you'll probably be OK.
     
  10. Grashopa

    Grashopa Emperor

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    May 16, 2009
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    1,307
    silverbow, I should have done immortal and a PA. Cool :)
     
  11. happyturtle

    happyturtle Mrs GrumpyOldCivver

    Joined:
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    End of game:
    Spoiler :
    I was actually AT war when a neutral party finished the Manhattan Project. Ragnar and Giggles had made a Permanent Alliance, and had cap'd Ramesses and Isabella. I had a Permanent Alliance with Cyrus, with Hammy as my vassal. The Viking/Sumerian armies were tearing through Babylonia, and I was sending Fighter and Bomber runs on their stacks to try to give Hammy a chance. I had a strong stack near my border, and felt sure I could keep them from reaching Istanbul, but that was before nukes were in play.

    I built a fallout shelter, and then started building ICBMs, at one per turn, and waited for the bomb to drop...

    Spoiler :
    ... it never did. Proof that the AI is stupid. They accepted peace for 60gp and a World Map 2 turns later. :huh:


    Results:
    Spoiler :
    1925 Space Colony win. If I'd only timed it better - I was TWO TURNS away from getting Legendary culture. :lol:

     
  12. Silverbow

    Silverbow Prince

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    Interesting. Library is my top 'normal' building, but there's just so many wonders I want to get before it that it's hardly built ASAP. Oracle, Mids and TGW are all vital and of higher priority, really.
     
  13. happyturtle

    happyturtle Mrs GrumpyOldCivver

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    The Pyramids are vital, at least for an OCC game. Oracle, also very very good. But TGW? It's nice, but I wouldn't consider it vital, especially in OCC where you only have one highly cultured city to protect.
     
  14. Silverbow

    Silverbow Prince

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    Beats teching archery, hooking up copper and building units, especially on land heavy map such as this one. The downside is that it produces spy points...
     
  15. cas

    cas Emperor

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    Spoiler :

    Great Wall is good on some maps. Inland sea starting in a corner...completely unnecessary. I was able to fogbust easily with 5 warriors. Cheaper than TGW and would have allowed you to build a libarary or start Pyramids earlier.


    cas
     
  16. schadenfreude

    schadenfreude Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    79
    I am confused. What makes emperor OOC difficult is that the AI is playing at noble. Building at noble, teching at noble pace, etc. If you nerf the AI's tech bonus, it is no longer an emperor OOC game.
     
  17. happyturtle

    happyturtle Mrs GrumpyOldCivver

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    I'm told I have to remove the 'handicap' line in order for the difficulties to work correctly. Unfortunately, I don't understand the settings well enough to explain them. You'll want to go to TheMeInTeam's thread with those sort of questions.
     
  18. VoiceOfUnreason

    VoiceOfUnreason Deity

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    3,663
    I've been using this game as a chance to examine some ideas in the opening

    Normal/Noble.

    Spoiler :

    Note: in the calculations below, I'm assuming you traded a turn to settle on the plains hill @T1.

    There are two important ideas in the opening.

    1. Oracle -> Civil Service -> Bureaucracy + Caste System
    2. Pyramids

    The bottleneck on a Pyramids build is hammers - 500 is a whole lot.

    The bottle neck on Civil Service, however, is research. The gold mine helps a bunch, but with marble on hand and decent production tiles, the wonder falls very quickly. (Note: the conservative plays - Alphabet, Code of Laws - are bottlenecked on hammers. When you raise the difficulty high enough, you need new ideas.)

    Because the bottleneck is research, an early library is critical - you get the boost to base research, and slots to run specialists and get a Great Scientist up and running.

    You can use the Great Scientist to research Math for you, which cuts about 8 turns off of your research time. That might be the right answer on higher difficulties, but you are sacrificing some long term strength to do that. At Noble, it's probably good enough to burn the GS on an Academy.

    Two specialists plus the gold mine uses up all of your corn, so you desperately want to be size 5 when you finish the library, without giving up any library turns. That will allow you to grow into size 6 (the gold providing the extra happy) as you chew through the research you need.

    The worker is ready on turn 12, and won't be ready to mine for another 7 turns. So you don't need to research mining right away. You've only got one tech available that will allow you to build something useful immediately, and that's Pottery. That gives you the Granary as a place to put hammers while you research Writing.

    The Marble quarry is an awesome tile, but you don't finish it quickly enough for it to contribute to constructing the library, and it doesn't accelerate the academy, so you might as well pick up Mysticism first for the research bonus. Your worker is going to be busy farming the flood plains to help you reach size 5.

    Hypothetically, you could sink hammers into the Pyramids while waiting to get the Oracle timing correct. In practice, it's probably better to finish the granary. That gives you the bonus food when you grow to size 6, and then you can trade that food for extra hammers after the Bureaucracy bonus has kicked in.

    So the build order would look like: worker, (granary), library, granary, (pyramids?), oracle, pyramids.
    And the tech order would look like: pottery, mining, writing, mysticism, masonry, meditation/polytheism, priesthood, math, code of laws...

    At normal speed, this wants to shake out at about turn 56 or 57.

    Once you start on the pyramids, you are looking at about 15 hammers/turn base, with a 50% bureau bonus. 22 hammers per turn, so the pyramids is about 20-25 turns out. Your research rate should produce Aesthetics in about 6 turns, Literature in about 4. That leaves room to research one or two techs.

    Bronze Working, and some chops, would help pull that in a bit. So a good candidate to research next is Alphabet, with the intention of trading for Bronze Working. Less efficient, though quicker, would be to take a couple turns to research Bronze Working yourself, and get to chopping right away.

    Monotheism, opening up Organized Religion, fits with the idea that you are limited by hammers as you construct a lot of wonders. But you probably don't have a neighbors religion yet, which makes that idea risky diplomatically when your army is still your original worker.

    (What about spreading Confucianism to your neighbors? Tough to get them to prefer your religion to theirs without a lot of hammer investment, and hammers are still relatively scarce. My tactic is to take the free missionary and use him for fog busting/scouting/introducing religious tensions somewhere away from my borders.)

    Once you've constructed the Great Library, your production demand drops a lot -- you've plenty to do (National Epic, Hammam, Hanging Gardens, Shwedagon Paya, Forge...) but it's not urgent - so dial back the hammers, grow to the happy cap and get the specialists running.


    Shwedagon + Music offers an interesting opportunity, use the artist to pop a golden age, adopt a religion and a religious civic to bang out some goodies, and then use your second swap to kick into free religion. Or end with a swap to a target religion, if you get lucky.

    As you are researching education, keep in mind that your next target is Chemistry->Scientific Method, so stay alert for opportunities to trade along the bottom of the tree. Use the aquatic line (Fishing->Sailing->blah blah blah->Astronomy) to make change.



    And one additional bizarre observation

    Spoiler :

    It had occurred to me that maybe the marble doesn't matter in oracle construction; after all, we're sinking hammers into granary/pyramids to get the timing right, maybe we can speed things up by ignoring the quarry.

    From what I've seen - it doesn't work. Yes, you save turns by not researching Masonry early, but as a punishment (a) you don't have the quarry to work, which is a pretty good commerce tile, and (b) your research gets gimped trying to make up for the missing hammers.

    That said, I wasn't particularly thorough here. I had expected to easily save time; it might be that with some more judiciously placed cottages you can make up some of the difference.
     
  19. happyturtle

    happyturtle Mrs GrumpyOldCivver

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    My opening:
    Spoiler :
    I cottaged the flood plains to boost research, and sometime mid-game farmed them over because I had plenty of money by then. I think my improvement order was Corn > Gold > Flood Plain > Quarry > Flood Plain. I sank some forests into the Pyramids. I ended up saving 7, I think, for National Park Forest Reserves, but chopped a few by the river for farms, as well as more outside the BFC.

    I tried sending my Confucian missionary out to find a pagan nation far from my borders to convert, but he got killed by barbs about three tiles from my border. :p It didn't matter as I had plenty of religious conflict in my game, with 3 religious blocks. The game would have been easier for me if I'd been in the middle of one of the blocks instead of on the border between Judaism and Buddhism, but it was much more exciting this way. :lol:
     
  20. cas

    cas Emperor

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    One possible flaw with this build order:
    Spoiler :

    Even on noble, you probably want a 2nd warrior somewhere in there. I doubt you need it prior to Oracle, but Pyramids takes a while to build and there is a good chance barbs will be entering your borders and pillaging before you finish Mids. And delaying your worker from chopping near your border.

    Also, it is worth building/chopping a 2nd worker to speed up chop-production if you have a LOT of forests.

    If I have a terrible warmonger neighbor, sometimes I use a 2nd warrior early to constantly steal workers. Of course, this has other long term consequences like -diplo, one less trading partner, that AI doesn't expand so more barbs spawn, etc...but on nooble it can be worth it. Not on this particular game though...Justin on one side and Hammy on the other is a good.


    cas
     

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