OCCC1- One city Conquest

[Lanzelot]

So what you are up now? Deity, Vikings, small Archipelago map? will it be generic (good) location or special design?

Would you be interested in joining this game? Kulko played a test game on emperor, and in the beginning it looked like it worked easily, but then he ran into trouble and it looks like he can't win it. What is your opinion: can something like this be winnable on Deity? Should we make another attempt on Emperor instead? At the moment I'm tempted to try it on Demigod. (But if you join us, I'll go for Deity... )

Of course we need an excellent start location. Otherwise it's no fun.

 

[templar_x]

you could ask your grandma, Lanzelot
(only civforum readers will understand the joke)
t_x

 

[Lanzelot]

That Demigod/Maya position over there was childsplay. Here we need real men.

Ok, I suggest Deity with hand-picked opponents. Kulko already made some suggestions:

So how about america, hittites, Egypt, China and japan or arabia instead?

The goal is to exclude the scientifics. I would add the requirement that they have no good unique units. But we could allow some scientifics in order to get Invention quickly. And then conquer these scientifics first, before they advance too far...

I would suggest:
a) three scientifics: Germany, Korea, Babylon (the German Panzer will come too late, and the other two have lousy UUs)
b) two victims: Hittite, Zulu (Egypt and America are industrious, and we should avoid IND and AGR civs. China, Japan and Arabia have excellent UUs, no need to fight those...)

 

[Kulko]

Scientific Suggestions:
I think Russia (Expansionist) also has relatively late UU and the trait is even more useless on a barbarianfree archipelago map.
On the Scifree techs I only see mongolia as a possible addiztion, if we would like to reduce the number of Scientifics in the game.

 

[Lanzelot]

Yep, Russia and Mongolia are ok, too. (I didn't list any civs with strong horse-based UUs, but I guess on Archipelago it doesn't matter.)

 

[LKendter]

lurker mode = on

 

[I. Larkin]

you could ask your grandma, Lanzelot

Can't understand this.

Back to topic: I'd like to try if strong team will be.
So Vikings confirmed?
We need Island with river, 2 Lux and two cows. Then Deity OK.
With 1 Lux and 1 Cow Demidog playable.

Why you want Scientific opponents?

 

[Lanzelot]

I thought that scientific opponents would shorten our time till Invention?!

 

[Kulko]

Well I am not really sure, that is helpful. The real time of power is between our researching invention and them getting gunpowder. And at least in Emperor difficulty I managed to beat the AIs by a few techs getting in the MA. When I pull them up in order to gain from their free techs, I also speed up the tech pace meaning they get faster to Gunpowder and Astronomy.

Of course the Math of this tradeoff changes significantly when the AI research Speed is raised, so I am not sure, if it would be smarter to play with or without Scientific Civs.

One more reason Why I would prefer to play Demigod first.

 

[Kulko]

preliminary roster
Kulko
Lanzelot
I.Larkin

@ Lkendter I assume you have decided to stay with lurking, but you would also be welcome to join.

 

[Lanzelot]

Summary of what we still need to decide and what we have so far:

• Scientifics yes/no?
• SGLs yes/no?
• Any preferences for aggression level and age/climate etc.?
• The following seems to be consensus: Vikings, Archipelago, 80% water, standard rules, small map, 5 hand-picked opponents.
• Let's roll 2 Demigod and 2 Deity starts and choose the one we like best.

 

[LKendter]

If you are doing the Vikings, why do you want to speed up the tech pace? Early amphib assualt is your advantage. You should be able to pull unexpected amphib which the AI doesn't handle.

Neat UU, and hopefully in Monarchy by them for tripping GA.

 

[Kulko]

SGL:
We only need SGL for a wonder. On Emperor I managed Colossus TGL and MoM easily. On Deity this might be harder, but on Deity we will have fewer monopoly techs and so the chance of an SGL is reduced. And we have already enough random events which must go right anyway.

Aggression level:
After seeing that coloss America in my game taking over russia so easily I would rather reduce the agression level. It would also reduce the chance that our current victim declares on the AI we have gifted their cities too.

 

[templar_x]

i believe that Byzanz is stronger than Scandinavia in such a game. that is, because the dromon gives you additional firepower on the front like a most mobile catapult. plus they rule the seas, what Viking galleys do not. zerks are neat but not nearly as cost effective, as they come at a steep shield price.

and Theodora is scientific...

t_x

 

[Lanzelot]

We know. But the purpose of that game is to try out whether the amphibious "hit-and-run" tactic that I outlined to Kulko in a mail, is really doable on Deity or not.

In short, my plan is as follows:

• Isolate the AIs to have a sufficient time window before Gunpowder.
• One victim at a time. Take all coastal towns with Berserks and immediately gift to some third party (in order to avoid the "refilling of the gaps" problem). As the Berzerks will never be exposed to counter-attacks, we should have nearly no losses.
• When the victim is finished, turn around and declare on that third party. All those gifted towns should still be empty or at most have a spearman in them, so can easily be retaken. This will drive up the new victim's war weariness and hopefully paralyze it. If these two islands are separated by ocean, we can probably even raze the former victim's towns instead of gifting them to a fourth party, without having to fear about refilling.
• Then rinse and repeat and attack the new victim's real core.

In Kulko's test game on Emperor, this worked like a charm in the beginning, but then at some point the progress stalled. Therefore speed is most important for this game. We need to have finished at least 3 AIs before Gunpowder and Astronomy. I believe, the problem in Kulko's game was, that his build-up was too slow (no granary for ages, not optimized for food, no workers that could be joined back in as soon as the city hits size 7. See my comments on the 1525 BC situation here).

Question is: can this plan be improved sufficiently so that it is successful on Deity?

 

[Kulko]

Well question is also, how do we get an ultra early Granary. In my game Pottery was not available for me before 2350BC, by which time my multiple cow town had already grown significantly. Also I built Units too early, creating unneccesary upkeep.

Anyway I would go with the folowing enemies in order to get us a good chance at early granaries:
Hithites, zulu,Mongolia,Aztecs,Inka

 

[I. Larkin]

I am not sure that early granary is a critical thing. Will we try Colossus? About "sling" will we try "short version"?

 

[Kulko]

By short version you mean researching Philo and hoping for Poly/CoL as an AI tech?

BTW I Assume we play in monarchy for the lower upkeep?

 

[Lanzelot]

I would play in Republic for higher research. In the beginning we won't have that many units that upkeep is a problem.

I think granary is imporant, if we try something like this:

• Create early two-turn worker factory
• Build 5 workers (or more, if we need some for luxury colonies)
• Let town grow to size 7, while the workers improve the best 12 tiles
• When town hits size 7, join workers back in to jump to 12 immediately.
• Disband granary

It will not make that much difference in terms of commerce, because most of the exra money will go into the luxury rate, but it'll give us an incredible production, which is necessary, if we want to build Colossus, Mausoleum and Lighthouse, before the AI does...

However, if we have multiple cows (at least +7fpt) I guess then we don't need the granary?!

I think if we pick AIs without Alphabet, we can go for the full sling?!

 

[Kulko]

Alphabet only would remove further civs from the equation. There should be a few traits left, which we want in the AIs.

Your plan for a worker family is fine but I am not sure if we can gain pottery early enough to make it worthwhile.

As for Republic, this higher research would at most be needed for 5 techs or so. I am not sure thats worth it. But it should be easy enough to calculate.