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Of Angels and Magic

Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Lore' started by Darksaber1, Jun 11, 2008.

  1. Darksaber1

    Darksaber1 Secret Emperor

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    This thread is just an effert to centre all the ponderings and musings concerning the angels and magic. So if you have ANY questions about magic or Angels; Ask here please. Keeps things simple.

    My first Question: Which civs match wich Angels/Magic. My knowledge is as such:
    Lugus: Malakim
    Sirona: Elohim
    Nantosuelta: Luichuirp
    Amathaon: Kuriotates
    Junil: Bannor
    Arawn: Sidar?
    Oghma: Amurites?
    Danalin: Lanun
    Dagda: Grigori
    Kilmorph: Khazad
    Sucellus: ?
    Cernunnos: Ljosalfar
    Tali: Hippus
    Camuloes: Doviello?
    Aeron: Calabim
    Ceridwen: Sheim
    Mammon: ?
    Esus: Svartalfar
    Mulcarn: Illians/Doviello?
    Agares: Infernal
    Bhall: Clan of Embers
    Please Expand/Correct if you know anything.
     
  2. Kael

    Kael Chieftain

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    The only ones you missed were:

    Sucellus; Mercurians; Life
    Mammon; Balseraphs; Mind

    Sadly we will probably turn this thread into a thread discussing spells (since we turned the spells thread into one about angels)
     
  3. Darksaber1

    Darksaber1 Secret Emperor

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    Well, thats sort of why I chose to start this one.;)

    So I got the others all right? Whow. I was Guessing on a few of them.:D
     
  4. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Well, the Mercurians represent the Life sphere, but not Sucellus. Basium never thought highly of Sucellus, "whose only military achievement was failing at what a mere mortal bag of flesh later succeeded" (that is almost a quote from Kael, but I forget the exact wording). He wanted Arawn to give him the sphere of Life, so that he could use it to fight demons. He was the Archangel of Life after all. (He and His Twin sister, Gyra, Archangel of Death, were created by Arawn when he was god of life, not by the original god of Life, Nemed, or the future one, Sucellus)


    Kael, does this conflict with what you recently said about all the gods having reverence for Sucellus on account of Nemed? Or is it only the gods that feel that way, not their archangels? What does Basium know about Nemed? Archangels weren't created until after Nemed abdicated his Precept in order to father the human race, after all. Of course, Basium does know enough about The One to carve his named into his fingers, and logically it seems like the archangel of life should know at least as much about the old god of life as the other archangels.

    Having Auric Ulvin/Mulcarn like the risen Sucellus seems a little odd too, since they weren't friendly in their first lives.



    Also, it obviously wasn't right to list the Doviello under Mulcarn too. And you misspelled Camulos.

    Did the other gods have more respect for Arawn when he was God of Life, or did also being God of Death anchor down his personalty and make his less like Nemed? Is there something about the Life sphere that makes one want to sacrifice it? No other god has ever abdicated a precept, yet gods of life have done so twice. Does this mean that Sucellus won't hold on to it either?




    Does Nemed (or the man who used to be Nemed) (still) know how to use magic?

    If magic is the power the gods used to create the world, and the first man was once a god, it seems like he would still have enough knowledge of magic to be a very powerful archmage. Which raises questions as to how Os-Gabella manages to keep him prisoner. (Of course, it could also help explain why she needed to study under Kyorlin to learn how to do so.) It also seems like he might have taught magic to someone before Ceridwen did, doesn't it? Or does he not know how anymore? It does seem like giving up his memory along with his precept could explain a few things. It might also rule him out as the founder of the Luonnatar though (per one of my crazy theories)



    How can Dwarves use magic?

    You have stated that men can channel magic because of the "Divine Spark." Men have the Divine Spark through their descent from Nemed, one of the original creations of The One. Elves, Aifons, and Orks are all descended from Men, and thus from Nemed. The Dwarves, however, are not descended from Nemed, but from statues given life by Kilmorph. Do they have immortal souls? Are their souls of a different nature than human/elf/aifon/ork souls, being from Kilmorph instead of Nemed? Are their souls the souls of human worshipers of Kilmorph reincarnated in smaller, sturdier bodies? Is the Dwarven creation story wrong, and they actually humans changed by their close contact to with Kilmorph (like the elves were by their contact with Sucellus and the Aifons with Danalin), who were either deceived by Kilmorph or made up their own myth because they didn't want to be associated with human enemies? Is this just an inconsistency arising from the fact that you hadn't come up with the Nemed character at the time you wrote the story of Keldon Ki?


    What chance does Laroth have for becoming a becoming the God of Death? Is it even possible for a mortal to ascend to godhood? Are other humans aiming at divinity (besides Auric)?

    What sort of power can mortals gain from the Gems of Creation? How much of the Gods' power relies on the infinite plains of raw elements created by Agares?
     
  5. Darksaber1

    Darksaber1 Secret Emperor

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    Well, perhapes the New, Reborn/Human AuricUlvin/Mulcarn has a new respect for Sucellus, both for his rebirth and the fact that Sucellus put all of Nature at risk to try and stop him(Mulcarn)


    Well, I was spitballing

    Darn.

    Well, maybe the original dwarves/Khazad can't use magic, but the Luchuip gained the ability to use magic through their ties with Nantosuelta.
     
  6. Corlis

    Corlis Chieftain

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    I wonder if it's possible for Dwarves and Humans to cross-breed in Erebus? If so, that might explain why the Luchuip can use magic, since they lived on the surface a lot more than the Khazad did.

    I was trying to connect the peoples to their respective gods last night, and I think I got it, but the Sidar seem kind of strange, in that they're associated with the sphere of Death but they don't get Death mana with their palace. I'm guessing the reason is that they hate the undead, and all the Death spells create undead creatures, right?
     
  7. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I don't know if dwarves and men can crossbreed (we know elves and men can, but elves are descended from humans anyway), but I don't think that only the Luchuirp are part human, or that the Khazad are unable to use magic. They can still have do have Adepts, after all. Also, it goes deeper than just using magic. The Divine spark is also what the Gods want from us. If they don;t have immortal souls, then the Gods would not seek to have them serve them. Yet we know that there are dwarves who follow Kilmorph (obviously), Junil (Maros joined the Order), and Sucellus (hmm... it doesn't seem to be in the civilopedia anymore, but Arthendain's entry used to say that he died after an encounter with Mary andpromised his soul to Sucellus, who resurrected him tasked him with defeating Mary and ending the plague)



    Death Magic does not come from Arawn. Basically all the gods hate Death magic (which is really Undeath magic), but Arawn hates it more than anyone. He so was horrified by the abominations that sorcerers or earlier ages made with Death magic that he refuses to enter creation, so that mages cannot use him as a portal through which to channel the power of death magic. This doesn't matter so much now though , since The Gem of Death which Agares smuggled out of the True Heaven now lies in the hand of Tuoni, one of the Tree Brothers. It is from this gem, which has the power of an infinite plain of pure death, that the power of death magic is drawn.


    The Sidar Revere Arawn but don't exactly worship him. They tried to worship him in the past, but have pretty much realized that he doesn't want their worship. He has never done anything to help them, but Gyra, the Archangel of Death, has intervened on their behalf a couple times (at least once saving them from her twin brother, the Archangel of Life, Basium). The Sidar Hero, Rathaus Denmora, entered the passage from which Varn's people escaped the Underworld seeking to serve Arawn. He didn;t realize that that portion of the underworld was under the rule of Laroth, the dead Archmage of Spirit Magic who had built an empire in the Underworld and was gathering an army with which to try to usurp Arawn's Godhood. The angel he meets in the passage was loyal to Laroth, the Netherblade was created by Laroth (enchanted by having people's souls ripped out and bound to it), and it is Laroth he is serving by slaying the heroes of Erebus. (Only heroes have the strength of will to be useful in Laroth's army, instead of being caught up in their eternal dreams.) It is also the magic of Laroth (spells found in magical tomes stolen from Laroth's palace by Varn's father when the Once Elves escaped from the Underworld to the Shadowed Vale, and taken by Varn from the Shadowed Vale into Creation) that were used to create the first Shades. So, although they want to serve the god of death, they are actually helping his enemy.
     
  8. Kael

    Kael Chieftain

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    Oh, Basium hates Sucellus, there is no doubt.

    Mulcarn never knew the risen Sucellus so he never had to consider the "Nemed reborn" aspect. Auric isnt a god so he wouldn't fall into the statement.

    In the D&D game dwarves couldnt use magic at all. In the original FfH design the khazad were supposed to have hired human mages instead of dwarven adepts. The luchuirp werent dwarves in the origional D&D game.

    As you said there is a gap there (that dwarven adepts can use spells, that the luchuirp can have archmages). But I feel like some of that comes through. That is the reason why the khazad are so weak in magic, the Luchuirp could justify their magic use through the use of enchanted items instead of their direct casting (though that does beg the question of how they enchant itself without the "divine spark").

    I dont know about Laroth, some of Arawns angels have sided with him, so they seem to think he can do it. He is an incrediably powerful figure. Pretty much the father of the Sidar (who use his rituals to trade their souls for long life without wondering where their souls are going...), and creator of the Nether Blade. He does a lot of messing around for someone trapped in the afterworld.

    Yes it is possible for a mortal to ascend to godhood. If the creation of Sucellus can do it, why not the children of Nemed.

    Yeah, a few people are going for differing versions of godhood. The three brothers are treated as a new generation of gods, and they pretty much have the power to back it up. Others seek to make themselves gods just by gathering followers to worship them (not that it buys them anything but adjulation). There are thousands of angels under Camulos trying to take his seat, but thats not unusal for that group.

    Only two of the brothers were ever more than backstory in the D&D games. One was the godking over a nation (i dont remember the nation, this was an early campaign so i dont think it would have matched up with what we have now). Other countries, and the players, doubted his divinity as if he was another crackpot. A war was raged and an army marched against his country. He ordered his own army to stand down and he met the invading army standing atop a cliff edge.

    He raised his hand, where the gem was placed. The winds started, enemy banners flapped, then he dropped his hand. Tonadoes snaked down onto the battlefield. The army was destroyed in a fury of tornadoes and lighting strikes. He push the winds back and they carried the remains of the destroyed army back enemy capital, where they were dumped on the city in the heart of a massive storm.

    The second character the players directly interacted with. He was called Tuoni, Hades, about a dozen names of different death gods. He was able to trap the souls of those that died before they went into the afterworld. The party got in a fight with him and he sent dozens of their most powerful defeated enemies back against them at once.

    A side story: one of the players was specialized as a werewolf slayer. This is durign the casting of the spells of winter, and the sun had already been extinguished so werewolves prowled the land in packs under the eternal night. Duin was the head fo the werewolves and once the party figured out who he was and what he had been doing the inevitable fight ensured.

    What was planned to be a huge fight ended in one attack. The werewolf slayer rolled a crit against Duin, then rolled 100 on the percentile for the crit effect (we had a chart for that and 100 was the most deadly effect). With the crit effect and the slayers own bonuses it was enough to Duin in one shot. I had a big werewofl fight planned, but I scrapped it assuming that all the werewolves that saw that would stand down and wouldn't dare attack the party.

    Cut to a year or so later in real time. Tuoni/Hades stood at the top of the Malachite Palace (the gate to the afterworld in the shadowed vale) and the party charged up the stairs at him, weapons drawn. As with his brother, up came the hand, this time with a huge opal embeded in his palm. He couldn't kill the players because of a previous protection so he summoned a dozen or so of their old enemies to defned the stairs.

    The werewolf slayer met the ghost of Duin. He rolled his attack, got a crit and again rolled a 100. Duin was for the 2nd time downed in a single hit without even swinging a blow. For years afterwards Duin was the name given to any big nasty plot encounter that was completly disabled by some minor action. Poor guy never got any respect.
     
  9. smjjames

    smjjames Chieftain

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    ok I'm completely lost here, the three brothers thing was part of a D&D campaign right?

    While I am a fan of FFH, I know very little about D&D.
     
  10. Kael

    Kael Chieftain

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    Its backstory lore of FfH too. Agares secreted these gems out of heaven that allowed him to create after the One had taken the gift away from him. Much, much later three brothers stole three of these gems and gained a huge amount of power from it.
     
  11. smjjames

    smjjames Chieftain

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    I did see the part about him secreting the mana gems, but I didn't see anything about three brothers.
     
  12. xienwolf

    xienwolf Chieftain

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  13. El_Duderino

    El_Duderino Chieftain

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    hmmm kael didn't respond to how Os-Gabella keeps Nemed, a former god, prisoner... it almost seems intentional
     
  14. Ekolite

    Ekolite The Mighty Jungle

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    @Kael: I know that Sucellus's aspect is to do with growth and development over time, which is kinda reflected in the game with the FoL civic, which allows growth of cities to keep going for longer. What is Esus's aspect? And is it reflected in-game in the Council of Esus or the Svartalfar. Would it be possible for you to upload that chart of yours that displays all the angels, civs, animals, aspects linked togeather or would there be too many spoilers?
     
  15. Darksaber1

    Darksaber1 Secret Emperor

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    When considering why the Khazad have very limited magic, the reson might be thus: Being created from statures, the original Dwarves had no souls or magic. However, Kilmorph felt pity on her creation, cursed to emtyness after destruction. So, she dicided to cause the succeding generations of Dwarves to have shorter live(they were immortal), and in exchange, they gained souls and magic. However, the dwarves had lived for so long without magic, they diiden't know how to use it to it's fullest potential. A breakaway group(Luichiup), however, discover from humans or elves the power of magic. So, the Luichiup, who became tied with Nantsuelta, learned to use magic and enchantment, while the Khazad contented them selves with machines, having become distrustful of magic, and unwilling to learn from human mages, do to how humans had tricked them with magic in the past. Or something like that.
    (Full apoligies for any spelling mistakes/non-canon information I may use. I'm not at home, so I can't access the Civopedia.
     
  16. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    That still doesn't explain how they got souls. The way I see it, there are only 4 explanations:
    1. Kilmorph caused the souls of humans who had gone to her vault after death to be reincarnated in dwarven form. (This seems like it might conflict with what Kyorlin told Epona though)

    2. The Gods are capable of creating souls from their own, instead of passing them on only through sexual reproduction. This would probably mean that Dwarven souls are of a markedly different nature than human/elven/aifon/orkish souls,made from the element of earth instead of life. In this case, Dwarven souls were probably created the same way as true angels were created.

    3. The soul is not passed on through sexual reproduction, but in any act of creating. In this case, Keldon Ki imbued his statues with part of his essence as he crafted them just as easily as if they were his biological children.

    4. The story of Keldon Ki is only a myth believed by superstitious Dwarves. The Dwarves are simply humans who (like the Elves and Aifons) were changed by prolonged exposure to their god(dess). Keldon either never existed, or the Dwarves were actually his biological children instead of his handiwork.




    Does Os-Gabella have a soul? How about the woman created to replace her? They were not descended from their husband, Nemed, but created by the joint action of the gods. Yet, we know that Os-Gabella uses magic, as she was one of the students of Kyorlin.
     
  17. Darksaber1

    Darksaber1 Secret Emperor

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    Well, Artist do often say that their tring to "capture the sould" of what the create. It does say that Keldon Ki's work captured the "essence"
    of his creations. Maybe the first dwarves souls were just what he imagined them with, and that was how it was created. As to Os-Gabella, good point.
     
  18. smjjames

    smjjames Chieftain

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    I kind of like number 4, after all, hundreds of millenia separates the creation of humans from the age of rebirth. In the real world, scientists believe anatomically modern humans appeared about 800,000 years ago. Even 500 millenia would be plenty of time for humans to change in the presence of thier god like the Elves and Aifon did, and they are descended from humans that were in the care of Succellus and Danalin repsectively.

    It is really not a stretch to think of Kilmorph protecting groups of humans that went deep into caves, eventually into the underhome, trying to hide from the godswar. I know Kilmorph participated in the fighting, but it doesn't mean that she didn't try to protect groups of humans.

    There are caves that go deep into the earth and some pretty cavernous caves, so it's not hard for me to imagine that. Also, since plants apparently don't require photosynthesis on Erebus (doesn't mean they don't make use of it), they could have taken seeds of plants with them. After all, the dwarves do have to make thier beer from something and I don't think mushrooms, even in Erebus, would make good beer.
     
  19. Milosrdenstvi

    Milosrdenstvi Chieftain

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    Which three? Death, apparently, and nature? and...?
     
  20. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    The Three Brothers stole the Gems of Death, Air, and Water.


    Wait...I was under the impression that they were just consuming their own souls. Are you saying their near-immortality is due to giving their souls to Laroth?



    Sucellus's aspect was Nature/Growth, but now it is Life/Healing/Rebirth. Esus was originally the God of Trust, but after he sides with Agares he became the God of Deception. Sucellus' animal was the Deer, but is now the Phoenix. Esus' is a Panther. Sucellus' civ was the Ljosalfar, and he is hated by Basium, the leader of the civ of his new aspect. Esus' is the Svartalfar.
     

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