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Of the interest of "Walk of the trees"

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Calavente, Aug 10, 2009.

  1. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    The ljos have an über defense that is named "March of the trees".
    is it really interesting. I'm not really sure :

    I'll explain :
    with the current rate of growing New-Forest into forests,
    I can bloom at least 1 BFC with 1 PoL = 40turns (in normal), before even one of the new forest created on the last BFC becomes a forest.

    so, with march of the trees, you lose all your Ancient forest and get a bunch of treant and new-forest everywhere.
    It wouldn't be bad if those new-forest came back to be forest then ancient forest in a reasonnable time : about as much time as going from forest to ancient-forest or even as much going from hamlet to village or even village to town.

    But now, I imagine, late game, all your cities being crippled because it will take about 100 turns or even for 200 turns to repair the damages done by the treant assault.

    Furthermore,
    most of your new treants won't be alive long enough to strike an ennemy. The enemy has just to retreat for 3 5turns, he loses only the units you kill on the first turn; he can even come back later without fearing awakening a treant as there are no more ancient forests.

    So while in the short term it is a gain (treants) in the medium/long term it is a loss. You would have done better retreating units/defenders from 1-2 cities, get them into a third, defend the third city. Take a rest, let them think you're crippled then strike back, and take your loss back. At least you're not really crippled !

    It seems it's a spell for a last stand, just before loosing. Or if you need a breathing space even at such a price, maybe you should restart.

    It seems it's one of the civ-spell that has the worst tradeof, save at start game,, when you don't have FoL or you don't depend so much on a strong economy. (if that's the case, what is the use of "Birthright regained" for the Ljosalfar ?)

    Well maybe it's just me, but I would like to have your opinions on this.

    (If someone told me how to adjust back the new-forest growth rate to what it was before, maybe the spell would be a worthwhile trade)

    PS: sorry for the long-winded talk, and thanks for reading
     
  2. Humakty

    Humakty Happy Goblin

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    I was under the impression the growth rate was random. Are you sure it's 40 turns ?

    Anyway, elves have the most ubber economy around, hopefully their worldspell isn't top notch too . And it can be a life saver early game, in the time between FoL and GoN. So it's rather niche, but still potentially usefull, as you can neglect your military for a time
     
  3. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    The Treants are alive for 5 turns, not 3. In my only private Ljosalfar game I played so far, I used that spell offensively to capture cities, and I wasn't crippled that much.
     
  4. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    well, it's random...
    but the % chances is so low, that for all the cities I had to spread-bloom new-forests, 40 turns seems a minimum average for having more than 1 forest blooming.

    Maybe I had no luck at all but... still.
    yup.. but as it can be such a life-saver, for 3 5 turns, you don't want to use it for just 3 stupid axemen... so you still build some defense... and so you don't use it until you depend on your AF for your economy.. and thus you don't use it.

    And behind my "anger/reclamation" (don't have the good word in mind) it come down to an issue about the growth-rate of new-Forest. The un-usefullness of "March of the Trees", comes more from the growth rate of new-forest than from the spell itself.

    it also hinders the Bloom spell and thus the whole FoL line.
     
  5. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    5 turns.
     
  6. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    well, maybe it's my game, but without forest anywhere, the woodsman II of the treants doesnt allow them to go fast, save on the border.
    I suspect, they are uber powerful early game, when :strength: 10 is OP and you don't have ancient forest or you depend on the :food: and :hammers: of the ancientforests only for growth and not just to maintain your city population : loosing 10-20 :food: and 10-20 :hammers: per city is a strong blow to your economy and can cripple you midgame.
     
  7. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    I guess you could make Bloom work so that it upgrades new forest->forest->ancient forest if one is already on the tile.
     
  8. JonathanStrange

    JonathanStrange PrinceWithA1000Enemies

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    I mostly regard the Ljos "March of the Trees" World Spell as a "last resort" weapon which I cast when I'm in dire straits or occasionally, when the game's won and I just want to see a bunch of treants.

    I've listed my reasons before for not casting March but they're basically:
    • The treants usually appear far from where you need them.
    • They die before you can use most of them.
    • Your ancient forests die with them.
    • Large treant armies are expensive. Small treant armies harmless.
    In the early game, one can save your civ with March of the Trees, providing you've forests, which often are scarce early on. Then again, a few Treebeards might be enough at the start to stop an invasion.

    In the early game, especially on small maps with luck you can send use the spell offensively (assuming you have the World Spell, which you won't unless you've researched FoL) to attack very close neighbors.

    I like playing the Ljosalfars and I think their World Spell is cool and appropriate but it's hardly uber-powerful. Some people recommend using it asap - and there are times when I think that's best - but most games, I prefer to have it for emergencies. I think the developers did a good job with this World Spell - it works just not well enough to automatically win but yet enough to be glad you have it.
     
  9. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    it seems to me the best use for it would be so that you can totally ignore defenses in the early game and focus on teching and workers/settlers/buildings. could work against the AI, hardly against a human though. whatcha think about this Jonathan?
     
  10. JonathanStrange

    JonathanStrange PrinceWithA1000Enemies

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    I would do exactly that to smash early AI invasion stacks if I could - but the problem is we don't start with FoL (which is the only way to get the World Spell) so we still need some defenders earlier, the World Spell's a one-shot five-turn weapon (so what do we use against the inevitable next AI stack?) plus there remains some of the other problems I listed (like scattered and few ancient forests in the early game).

    I do agree though that the early game has possibilities where an unlucky enemy civ starts close enough for us to knock them out and I think that's worth using March. I also think it's better to cast March if you really need to save your early civ against a strong invader - even if that means only five or six treants are summoned.
     
  11. travathian

    travathian Warlord

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    I either use it early or not at all. By mid game with FoL and GoN my cities are huge, yet healthy and happy. This allows me to skip building numerous buildings that provide bonuses to health and happiness. Casting March of Trees might spare me from the uber stack of doom I have no chance of beating otherwise, but clear cutting all my forests only delays the inevitable. The instant loss of so much will cause my cities to riot and starve, making it even more difficult to fend off attackers.

    Woodsman II on the Treants is largely useless for offense because there is no more forest and chances are there isn't a whole lot outside your borders. The outermost ring of treants might be able to make it to an opposing city, but the rest will be sitting around.

    Totally ignoring defense early wouldn't work unless you turned off barbarians. Also keep in mind that your power rating is one of the things the AI takes into account when deciding on DoW. Yeah, you may have 5 cities to the AI's 3, but when they declare war there will be a decent sized stack on its way. You can only use Walk of Trees once, better hope the Hippus don't declare war 6 turns later with a bunch of 4 movement horsemen appearing at your border.

    I will say though that the resulting spike in the power graph when you cast your world spell is pretty damn funny.
     
  12. Onionsoilder

    Onionsoilder Reaver

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    Actually, you could probably use this to sue for peace. If you're at war with several AI civlizations, they don't know the treants will be gone in a few turns. They just know that suddenly, you are a LOT more powerful than them.
     
  13. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    sure, but 10 turns later they will now that you're wimpy again :D
     
  14. psychoak

    psychoak Warlord

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    On a dense map, with lots of forests, at diety, I was hemmed in by the doviello. They declared war, I cast march of the trees. The bronze age armies died, I razed three cities, captured two more, and fortified my position at the top of the heap as they gave me their left nut for peace. I was at the bottom when they attacked. 40+ treants when you've got axemen and archers for opponents can be extremely powerful.

    Of course, I quit right after that because I found out I was land locked with a now utterly destroyed opponent and would have to travel by ship to get around the damned mountains. Those Erebus maps are so cool, and yet...
     
  15. algonacy

    algonacy Chieftain

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    When I've played as them and had the vassal option enabled, when I "spike the power graph" almost all the civs in the game agree to become my vassal the very next turn. It's almost a game-ending moment. No other world spell does that of which I am aware (end the game simply by the mechanic of pushing the button and waiting 1 turn). So I usually never play with the vassal option anymore.
     
  16. Pelaka

    Pelaka Chieftain

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    I usually pop the spell just after getting FOL and having a good base of starting cities defining a nice cultural area. At that stage it doesn't hurt my economy and lets me clean out any those annoying goblin forts/archers, possibly capture a barb or AI city, and bloom my whole empire and nearby territories I plan to expand into. It greatly reduces my need for bloom micromanagement latter on.

    Pel
     
  17. Tasunke

    Tasunke Crazy Horse

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    I think FOL March of the Trees is actually "better" against the Human player. Usually people do not like seeing their army die to temporary units, and they could hardly care if your economy is ruined (unless its a feint, a ploy army, of course).

    I think March of the Trees is a good deterrent for early-mid game rushes, like a horsemen rush or a priests of Winter rush.

    A stack of ogres however, not so much.
     
  18. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    Me too, though not for that reason. I find the way it works inconsistent with the flavor of the mod.
     
  19. Bill Bisco

    Bill Bisco Callous Calling

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    March of the trees is best used as an early rush to take another civs city. Against big invading stacks, it's not very useful as the army can retreat back a few squares and wait 5 turns for the army of treants to disappear.
     
  20. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    thanks all for your comments-notes.

    I have to mourn the use of my civ-spell for the current game then.
    I had hoped someone would propose a way to do it without crippling myself.

    well I still think the growth rate of new forests is too small. (if someone can show me how to change it back to it's former value -or intermediate...)
     

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