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[OFF] How old is your country?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Henri Christophe, Oct 24, 2019.

  1. iammaxhailme

    iammaxhailme Emperor

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    Yeah, the grand scheme of things we're not that old. Although you could argue that we're older than a lot of European nations like Italy or Germany due to unification etc. (but I wouldn't really buy that)
     
  2. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    I'm from Wales which was created by its conquerers, never having been fully unified with a common identity before the English conquered it, so 1283.
     
  3. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Very tricky indeed. Let me add a few more dates to Tobizi's excellent summary:

    They first time that Germanic tribes appeared in history (e.g. in old Roman sources) was around 200 BC. Of course, this was not a unified nation like the Romans, but several independent tribes that shared a common language and culture. (Of course with regional differences, dialects and so on.) There followed a long period of interaction with the Roman Empire, which was more or less peaceful. There were trade relations (Germans exported honey, furs, timber, etc and in return got "advanced" Roman products like metal products), Germans joined the Roman Army and even made a career in it, up to high ranking generals, but there were also raids across the border, skirmishes and "punitive campaigns".
    A major turning point came in 9 AD, when Emperor Augustus decided to conquer the territory east of the Rhine, and the German duke Arminius, who was a former general in the Roman Army, managed to unite several German tribes under his command and completely defeated the entire invading Roman Army in a three-day guerilla-type battle. The consequence of this was, that Augustus dropped that plan and the tribes east of River Rhine never came under Roman rule and therefore had a different heritage than the Gallic and Germanic tribes west of the Rhine.
    Some claim that this was the birth of the German nation, but I think it is highly exaggerated, because shortly after 9 AD this alliance of Germanic tribes fell apart again, and the Germans continued their usual quarrels against each other instead of uniting against the Romans...

    This division into different tribes lasted throughout the times of the Roman Empire and the so-called "Migration Period" following the end of the West-Roman Empire.

    The next point that could be considired as a birth of the German nation, would be the Treaty of Verdun 843 AD, when the Empire of Charlemagne was devided between his three Grandsons. The westen part, over the centuries, developed into today's France, the eastern part into today's Germany and the middle part (Burgundy) broke up into parts which are today French, German and the smaler countries Belgium, Netherlands, Luxemburg.

    The dates 962, 1871 and 1949 have already been mentioned by Tobizi.
    Germany in its current form of today, exists since the so called "4+2 Treaty" of Oct.3rd 1990, when it was re-unified with the Soviet occupied zone and also gained full independence from the Western Allies.
    So we can argue that today's Germany is 29 years old...
     
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  4. adcarrymaokai

    adcarrymaokai Emperor

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    What about all the native people which had their own countries before Europeans arrived and killed them?
     
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  5. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    This did not often happen. Real true genocide was hard to do, even in Tasmania some survived, but yes displaced races the Turk in particular were fairly recent with an attempt.
     
  6. Kaan Boztepe

    Kaan Boztepe Warlord

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    Turkey , 42 years old
    latest nation for anatolia is 1923 the founding of the Republic , arguably we could go back to 1300 for the Ottomans
    but if we go by Victoria's great example
    Check out Göbeklitepe : ca:12000 years old
     
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  7. The googles do nothing

    The googles do nothing Prince

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    I live near what is now considered a concentration camp for native people. It's one of the few building over 100 years old.

    I would put the birth of the current form of American governance on December 7th, 1941. Opinions vary on if it was for better or worse but the place in American life of the federal government has vastly changed since then.
     
  8. Aurelesk

    Aurelesk Warlord

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    All depend what you are calling "country" or a "state". For me, a state need to have a centralized organisation and the monopoly of legitimate physical violence (yeah, there is not a proper definition so I just made one: you can disagree and correct me). For me, they are few countries in America around 1500 before the european. I may miss some, but I can only name the Mayans, the Zapotecs, the Tarascans, the Aztecs, the Incans and the Muiscans.

    It is tricky to translate old word vision of what a state/country should be to the new world civilizations. But I take the risk.

    Furthermore, all the lands wasn't populated: they didn't need to kill people to take the lands. Most of the times, they just buy the lands to amerindians, that moved a few kilometers (or not if the lands wasn't populated). But most of the amerindians were killed... by disease. In french Guiana: mostly by french missionaries diseases.
    Fortunately, all colonialism didn't follow the same route the USA took with there infamous Manifest Destiny, or the way the spanish did it.

    But they are civilizations, and they deserve recognition. But those civilizations wasn't a "country" or a "state" (or even a City-State). For example, I could argue that Belgium isn't a real country because there is no such thing as "Belgian" civilization, but Belgium is a state because it has a capitol city and a government (most of the time) [centralized organisation], and an army (sort of) and a police [monopoly of "legitimate" physical violence]. In a way, Belgium is a country without a civilization (or a french/dutch civilization), and the amerindians are civilizations without a state.
    (I don't know what I am saying is intelligible: english is still hard for me).

    We could say the same for the Gauls and Gallic people. Can we consider the Gauls as a country before the Romans then the Germanics/Franks people arrived and killed them? The answer is simple: the Gauls wasn't a country, just a conglomeration of small tribes not really linked to each others. And the Germanics/Franks didn't killed them, just took the territory, even if they were some wars (but no genocide).
     
  9. Henri Christophe

    Henri Christophe Chieftain

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    It isn't an easy question at all, because that depends how the history is taught, for example the Lanzelot's explanation about Germany history who can be older than Christ or just become a thing after the unification of East and West Germany in 1990.
    And even if I agree the year 1848 are the best year to speak about the born of Germany, this game always use Unique Features to this civilization older than 1848, as, for example, the Germany leader in Civ 6.

    The way the history is taught is very important. I don't think the Spanish colonies change that much after the independece, they still ruled by a Criollo elite and the indians and negros still on the bottom of the society. The main difference was, as Brazil become an empire ruled by an European family, when they start to write the Brazilian history was important to focus in the Portuguese heritage to legitimize the monarchy. Meanwhile, in the former spanish colonies they wanted to separate their history from spanish history, and also separate their history of their neighbors countries.

    Ps. for some reason, in Angola they also say their country begins with the arrival of the Portuguese, what I think it is way more weird, because they had a war of independece who over around 1975 (and it was follow by a civil war who over in 2002).

    I guess, countries as Mexico, Guatemala, Peru, Bolivia and Paraguay can speak about their natives as relevant in the foundation of their country, but they also don't do that.
    In Brazil, the nation called Tupi, who was along the Brazilian coast, had a strong influency in our society. Untill ~1750 the brazilians (even the whiters) almost just speak the Tupi language who was spreaded far over the coast, arriving as far as the Colombian border in the middle of the Amazon Florest.
    If we consider the arriving of the Tupis in Brazilian coast as the birth-moment of our nation, we would have ~1000 years old, I would like this history, but it isn't the history taught in Brazilian's school nowadays.
     
  10. Depravo

    Depravo Siring Bastards

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    Not much of a proposition but I'll bite:

    England began in 919.
     
  11. criZp

    criZp Emperor

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    They did not establish a state. Oh and the natives in america was killing each other quite a lot, too.
     
  12. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    Lebanon has one of the oldest continually inhabited cities in the world (Byblos) and the name derives from the Phoenician "LBN" which means white for its snow capped mountains.

    Survived as an autonomous state as the "Mount Lebanon" region under a couple of dozen empires til we finally had our independence back for the first time since the ancient times in 1943.

    Our country's history is a literal meme. Wrong place. Wrong time.
     
  13. Imaus

    Imaus Prince

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    The Triple Alliance, the myriad city states, the Inca Empire, the various Confederations...those weren't states? On top of the chiefdoms...

    And who cares if they were killing each other 'quite a lot, too'? Trying to shift some blame out and about?
     
  14. Henri Christophe

    Henri Christophe Chieftain

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    I need to desagre, the spanish just used the tributary system made by the aztecs and incas to forge their own empire in the new world. So, in Mesoamerica and Andes we had a lot of States made by indigenous nations.

    Also, the oldest state ever made in Americas was the Iroquois confederation, who was united in the year 1142 and just fall down after the US-Independence in ~1776 (~630 years old), and their social structure of a federation still being used in a lot of countries as USA, Brazil, Mexico and even in Europe as in Germany or in France.
     
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  15. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Moderator Action: This thread is heading into politics and current events. The question was fairly straight forward and we allowed the Off Topic thread because it asked:
    1st: Where are you from?
    2nd: How old is your country?
    for the purpose:
    Now I'm quite curious about how other nations understand they self, their own age, and their own history.

    Going beyond this narrow scope will see this thread moved to World History or OT or closure.
     
  16. criZp

    criZp Emperor

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    Just want to chime in and say that saying everyone was killing people isn't the same as "shifting the blame" and saying only the other guys was killing people. Very obvious, really, but still not obvious enough for everybody, I guess.
     
  17. raen

    raen Coat of Arms

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    Im from Portugal.

    Age is about 876 years old since independence. Previously was Portucalense County, vassals of the Kingdoms of Asturias, Galicia, and León.

    One particularity is that the country has one of the ancientest defined borders when the Algarve region was annexed.
     
  18. Pure24

    Pure24 Warlord

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    I'm going to be a little contentious and ask why a 'nation' is described as when Europeans settled there. For instance, @Kwami reported the first settlements of the United States being during the 1,500s and that is clearly untrue! And this isn't even a ideological thing, it is just factual.

    But yes, I agree with the definition of 'nation' being the longest period during which the region has adopted the current configuration of constitution and governance.
    Whether this period be unbroken by conquest and occupation, revolution, or otherwise some fundamental constitutional change, I don't know. I guess that's why it's tricky!

    In this light of that definition, my country, as Republic of Zambia, has existed since 1964 (so it is 55 years old). In fact, last Thursday was our Independence Day - it was chosen as 24th October to coincide with the United Nations Day.

    The earliest known civilization of an extant ethnic group are the Tonga people. From dating Ingombe Ilede (translates to English as 'the sleeping cow'), a trade post related in function to Great Zimbabwe and Kilwa Kisiwani but much less in scope, this tribe has been in Zambia since about 7th Century.

    The history of humans in Zambia, however, goes much much earlier. Much earlier...
     
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  19. adcarrymaokai

    adcarrymaokai Emperor

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    I am actually just curious as to how people calculate the age of their "countries". The poster from Brazil claims it to be 500 years old, but the Empire of Brazil declared its independence from Portugal in 1822, then became a republic in 1889, and the current constitution dates to 1988. Clearly, the poster marked the "birth" of Brazil at the arrival of European colonists. But if the age of a country is determined by its first inhabitants, then it should definitely be older, since there were already people living there?

    The US poster counts the country's age from the declaration of independence from the British Empire (by the thirteen colonies). In this case, it is not the arrival of Europeans and their first settlements—and not even the constitution itself—which marks the "birth" of the nation.

    Lastly, the French Guiana poster lays claim to... Gauls and Romans? I mean, 90% of French Guiana population is descendants of African slaves and natives, so wouldn't it be more correct to trace the lineage to something like Ghana and Nigeria? At some point in history, Algeria was an integrated part of France, but would Algerians consider themselves French, or... Gaul, or... Roman?
     
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  20. Imaus

    Imaus Prince

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    This is why my critrea is 'how far back can you go and say "I am a citizen of X, y, or Z" and people understand'? If you go back in Zambia far enough, how long is it until no one knows what Zambia is? If you go back far enough in Spain, how long does it take for 'Spain, Spanish, Spaniard' to not exist - would it be as recent as the 1490s or so? So on and so on.
     
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