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[OFF] How old is your country?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Henri Christophe, Oct 24, 2019.

  1. mathieuwang

    mathieuwang Chieftain

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    In my own opinion Liangzhu is one of the origins of Chinese culture.
    Some researchers think that it is the mainstem or main contributor of Chinese culture, because of its jade crafts and worship/funeral practices. But there are also archeological sites of other ancient cities in other areas in China, earlier or later than Liangzhu. I would rather take his hypothesis that before Shang Dynasty, cultures emerged and evolved simultaneously in different regions in the land where now we call it China, and then they merged into current Chinese culture -- either peacefully or by wars and conquers. All these cultures are contributors, but it is hard to say who is THE origin.
    Well, this is only my own opinion at the moment. Historians and archeologists are still debating over this.
     
    Ferocitus and Victoria like this.
  2. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak Pô Chi Min

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    Hi i'm from Quebec, province of Canada. Not a country yet but we are still working on it. We tried 2 times so far and it came very close in 1995 if it wasn't the Republic of Montreal. Not really in our plans for now but the idea have never died.
     
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  3. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    Thanks!
    We're about to watch some documentaries on the early phases of China's history so the reference and link is perfect.
    There was a BBC doco a while ago called Civilisaions that featured artwork from the Shang dynasty. Some of the sculptures of stylised heads with huge eyes looked quite similar to some Central American sculptures I've seen that were created many centuries later.
     
  4. NukeAJS

    NukeAJS King

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    Oh, the philosophy of naming stuff. That's what is really going on here. First off, if you haven't read Steven Pinker's "The Stuff of Thought", you really should. The very short version is that language consciously and unconsciously informs us of human psychology and behavior. This is very helpful for this debate, though I doubt it will solve it.

    First, a thought experiment, imagine there's an object that simultaneously creates unicorns while also destroying waldorf salads (and ONLY waldorf salads). What would you call such an object? Whatever name you come up with is almost certainly doomed to fail because this object doesn't exist and it's not important to talk about. No one is ever going to use that name for two main reasons: it doesn't exist and it's also not important. Ok, no revelation just yet. But because countries only exist abstractly, when people give something a name, and others start using that name to refer to the same thing, it exists abstractly. Something must exist (and be useful) abstractly before it can actually exist (at least as far as language is concerned).

    Soooo ... someone, somewhere had to give a name to every object in every language at some point in time. It might be hard to imagine, but there was some person that looked at a very large bump in the Earth and said "mountain" and everyone around him immediately accepted it and started using mountain to describe the same geological feature. This is important for our country debate because we can get a rough idea of when a country started to exist simply by checking the record of when people started using the current name of the country. There are some problems with this method such as civilizations with no writing system or very few literate people. For recent countries, it should work just fine. In addition, some countries are the names of a particular region and that region's people decided to adopt the name of the region for the name of its country. In such circumstances, this doesn't work either.

    So, dig up old historical documents and see what word they used to describe that region of the world. When people start using the word that is your country (or something very similar), you're probably just before the foundation of said country.

    In USA history, it's very clear when the USA started to exist as a concept of a separate *country and that's when the phrase "British/royal colonies" started to be replaced by "united colonies" by the more rebellious Americans. Realizing that a sovereign colony made no sense, the USA finally adopted "United States" just 4 months after declaring independence -- just in time for the first round of British reinforcements to start arriving :p

    * Most Americans at the time didn't see the USA as a single country per se. They saw it more as a confederation much like the EU is today. If an American were abroad back then and you asked them what country they were from, they'd answer with "New York" or "Virginia" in the same way that if you ask a European what country they're from, they'd respond France or Italy, not the EU.
     
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  5. Tobizi

    Tobizi Chieftain

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    But that doesn't really work all that good because different languages use different words for the same country. E.g. Germany:
    "Germani" is latin and about 2200 years old. It describes the germanic tribes in middle Europe and Scandinavia. English and other languages use this as root word (Germany).
    "diutisc" is Old High German and about 1200 years old. It simply means "affiliated to the people". German and other languages use this as root word (Deutschland).
    The "Alemanni" were a confederation of Germanic tribes on the Upper Rhine River. The word is latin and about 1800 years old. French and other languages use this as root word (Allemagne).
    So who is to blame for the describing word of Germany, Deutschland, Allemagne etc.?
    Language changes and develops just as the more or less abstract things they describe.
    Of course I can take "diutisc" and that works fine with the development from Eastern Frankia to the Federal German Republic. But this two states have hardly anything in common except of some part of landscape and some kind of similar people/language.
     
  6. Mahi

    Mahi Warlord

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    The theoretical approach is OK but far from bullet proof to make sense as a main argument. Denmark was founded by the tribe of Danes (Danmark literally means "Danes' Field" and was previously referred to "Dania" before that). So you could argue that Denmark/Dania would have existed since the first time the tribe of Danes settled on some land. In my opinion you need a ruler or establishment to proclaim the land and make it stick into the history books before you can call it a country. Using the time where a country is first mentioned is a bit blurry reference in my opinion.
     
  7. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    But yes for older it does not.Especially when is comes to an island. New Zealand was inhabited by the Maoris and was called Aoteoroa but white man came and called it New Zealand and so the victor names the prize.
    Surely the real common source of country when we talk of continents is language and custom, often caused by physical boundaries?
     
  8. Chefofrats

    Chefofrats Warlord

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    Can we please just let people define their countries however they want and get back on topic? If you really need to discuss what a country as such is, make a separate topic elsewhere. I find the short, historical descriptions very interesting, but the "nonsense this, nonesense that" namecalling is really pointless.
     
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  9. TomKQT

    TomKQT Prince

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    I'm from the Czech Republic (central Europe). And age of the country is also tricky.

    Czech Republic exists since 1993, before that it was the Czechoslovakia since 1918. Before 1918 we are going into the age of monarchies here which go as far as 833 (Great Moravia).

    So, I would say that my country in fact is approximately 1186 years old, because Moravia still is a part of Czech Republic and it counts as our history. But there were people in this area even in the Lower Paleolithic around 2.5 milions years ago...
     
  10. Flaxton

    Flaxton Warlord

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  11. Arraz

    Arraz Chieftain

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    Oh so you are a Bohemian?
     
  12. TomKQT

    TomKQT Prince

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    I'm Moravian. Czech Republic historically consists of Bohemia, Moravia and Silesia (Silesia is shared with Poland and Slovakia). And I live in Moravia.
     
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  13. MooFreaky

    MooFreaky Meatbag Destroyer

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    I'm from Australia.

    Modern Australia is 118 years old. There were European "colonists" here before that,but that is when those colonies banded together and formed the nation of Australia. However, I am happy that there is a growing portion of our country (in our youth, at least) that realises this doesn't represent the true history of Australia. Australian culture dates back 60,000+ years and it's those cultures and peoples that modern Australia was built on top of.
    The Brits officially declared Australia uninhabited to allow them to "legally" seize control of the most fertile lands, pushing the natives away and inland. We have done horrible things to our indigenous population and it's only in very modern times we have started trying to make amends (and that is VERY limited thanks largely to one of our two major political parties not wanting a bar of it)
     
  14. Arraz

    Arraz Chieftain

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    Thanks for the explanation !
     
  15. Henri Christophe

    Henri Christophe Chieftain

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    First, I need to desagree! I guess it's very important discuss what is a nation? what is a country? and how was the history write down? It's already a off topic to make us think about that.


    I don't think this question have a correct answer. There is an historian I like that much who says: "The past is always changing". That means, don't matter what happen in the past to our own history, but matter how we interpret and understand what happen to write down our own history.

    In the Brazilian's official history we aren't taught as our independence as a big deal in our history, maybe because our first emperor was the same prince who rules us before the independence. Some historians also argue was Portugal who became independent from Brazil, because since the Napoleonic Wars the capital of the Portuguese Empire was in Rio de Janeiro and not in Lisbon. The king Dom João VI, who moved the capital to the Portuguese Empire to Rio de Janeiro is officially considered our first king, even if all time he was in Brazil was before our independence.
    But, as I said, in history don't matter what happened, but matter how we understand what happened. Under the kingship of Dom Pedro II it was start to be writen our history, our officialy history, and was decided to set our heritage back to the day 22 April 1500 and untill today this is the history we taught to our children in school, if you want to be sure, just search in google " Brasil 500 anos" and you will see how many things appear.
     
  16. Basajaun

    Basajaun Warlord

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    Not really sure, very old. Wiki says:

    Ancient period[edit]
    According to some theories, Basques may be the least assimilated remnant of the Paleolithic inhabitants of Western Europe (specifically those of the Franco-Cantabrian region known as Azilian) to the Indo-European migrations. Basque tribes were mentioned by Greek writer Strabo and Roman writer Pliny, including the Vascones, the Aquitani, and others. There is considerable evidence to show their Basque ethnicity in Roman times in the form of place-names, Caesar's reference to their customs and physical make-up, the so-called Aquitanian inscriptions recording names of people and gods (approx. 1st century, see Aquitanian language), etc.
     

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