Offensive Defense: The Tactical and Strategic Values of the Great Wall

aelf

Ashen One
Joined
Sep 16, 2005
Messages
17,593
Location
Tir ná Lia
Many of you might be wondering what's the point of building the Great Wall. It's not a modest wonder, costing 300s. Certainly, the barbarian bonus is useless. And who wants to get a 20s improvement for free, esp since it's gone when your towns grow above 6 pop (enabled by the very technology that unlocks the Great Wall)? The wonder expires after Metallurgy too. All in all, it seems to be a bad deal.

Well, there's a different point of view. If you are a militaristic civ planning to embark on that early middle age campaign of massive expansion, it might be useful to consider building this wonder. It has worked on Emperor, so I'm pretty sure this is a viable option, though higher difficulty settings might present challenges I can't foresee.

So why the Great Wall? As a warmongering militaristic civ, what ancient age wonder would you choose to aid your game plan? Of course, the best is to get the powerful SoZ. I'd advise that you take that over the Great Wall anytime, unless you love challenge. But you're not blessed with ivory that is within reach in every game. Would you save for Sun Tzu, just one tech into the middle age? That seems great for purposes of warmongering. But why erode your civ's inherent advantage? As it is, you enjoy cheaper barracks. By building Sun Tzu, you are spending shields to eliminate this advantage, shields that could be spent on addressing your civ's weaknesses. It's better to shoot for Leonardo's Workshop since your (likely) authoritarian political system does not produce as much gold for upgrading units, but that's later (probably by then you are well into your campaigns). Why, you might ask, would you want free city walls, which you can build at half price as well? It is percisely because you are unlikely to spend time building them.

In the early middle age, your road to glory takes the form of the formidable knight. You'd likely be concentrating on building him, since he has the same defensive strength as a pike while packing a punch.

So it happens that you make a conquest or two in a turn with your knights, how would you hold that city you've just conquered against the counterpunch an estimable foe? Sometimes you don't have or can't get enough pikemen to that city within that turn. Sometimes your pikemen can't even reach the city within that turn (esp so for Chinese players using fast Riders against enemy cities further into hostile borders). In these cases you risk losing some of your valuable attacking force defending that city. You might even lose that city if the enemy counterattack proves to be stronger than expected. Here, the Great Wall comes to your aid.

While a free barracks building doesn't help your knights survive attacks during the enemy's turn, a free city wall can. If you have the Great Wall, the city you conquer immediately gives you an advantage at defense to help your attacking force survive. Even if you can get enough defenders into the city, you'd want to be concentrating on maintaining your offense without, as much as possible, having to build extra defenders to replace those killed.

After you have survived the critical period right after taking an enemy city, you'd probably not have that much use for walls. That means, while you might want to build barracks later on, you'd probably not waste a few turns on walls. Only the Great Wall can always give you those walls when they are most useful. Of course, you have to balance this with not having your units in that newly acquired city heal as quickly if you are forgoing Sun Tzu in favour of the Great Wall.

As I have mentioned, this gambit works well for Chinese using Riders. Japanese Samurai become one step closer to invincible, while Arabian Ansars and Mongolian Keshiks can finally stand on their own. Moreover, Arabs can benefit tactically like the Chinese, while Mongols can more safely conduct an invasion across unpathed mountains inaccessible to slow defenders.

On the strategic level, a warmonger with the Great Wall is, needless to say, only made stronger during the important early middle age campaigns. Other civs would be less willing to or attack (or, failing that, less successful at attacking) while you conduct your war against a neighbour.

Naturally, terms and conditions apply. The Great Wall only pays for its cost if you are chielfy concerned with overland campaigns (since the wonder only works for cities on the same continent) in this phase of your game and are facing worthy opponents. The first time I tested this I found out that the opponents I faced on my continent were so feeble they couldn't even stand up to my swordsmen. I didn't face any counterattack worthy of being blunted by walls to save my attacking forces.

*One other potential problem that I almost forgot to mention is getting a GA with the Great Wall when you had hoped that your Riders (for example) will give you that nicely-timed, non-despotic middle age GA. But from my experience, it's not so bad. Getting a GA with the Great Wall enables me to get to monarchy quickly and greatly helps with unit production as well as some basic infrastructure construction. When the time comes for me to launch my chivalry campaign, I am better off than I would be had I not gotten a GA earlier, and I appreciate the edge it gives me in such a crucial period.

Feel free to express any comment/opinion regarding this :)

*added later
 
You analysis is good ... at least for emperor :) But I suspect that the Great Wall is again not so great at deity and sid levels. At those higher levels, enemies have much more units, surely you will benefit more from free walls, but you would benefit even more from 300 shields of units (e.g., 10 swords or 15 cats). Just because enemies are too strong, you have to accumulate more units to attack, so you cannot afford any wonder other than those extremely powerful like Zeus. It's indeed a pity, making play style less diverse. Anyway, historically, the Great Wall didn't really provide a lot of help to China's defense, so ...
 
yes, I like the great wall, sometimes I build it, sometimes I dont, its jsut a matter of mood... ;)
 
lfyuan said:
You analysis is good ... at least for emperor :) But I suspect that the Great Wall is again not so great at deity and sid levels. At those higher levels, enemies have much more units, surely you will benefit more from free walls, but you would benefit even more from 300 shields of units (e.g., 10 swords or 15 cats). Just because enemies are too strong, you have to accumulate more units to attack, so you cannot afford any wonder other than those extremely powerful like Zeus. It's indeed a pity, making play style less diverse. Anyway, historically, the Great Wall didn't really provide a lot of help to China's defense, so ...
Wasn't the Great Wall built to keep invading Barbarians IN China after their incursions to prevent their escape with the loot? It was not really meant to keep them out....(Easy to ride past with empty saddle bags and no wagons...hard to cross with overloaded mounts and wagon loads of stolen goods...)
 
Haha. Well, I am just offering a point of view that no one seems to have touched on in the long time I've read articles from this forum. You are probably right about the Deity and Sid difficulty levels. I haven't mastered those. But I think there is a limit to the number of units you can produce.

As I said, this strategy is for those planning to capitalise on the power of knights to expand during the early middle age. Ideally, as it happened in the few games I tried this, you would have gone through or are finishing the first phase of military expansion with swordsmen and archers. I am usually not very ambitious at this phase, preferring to keep the war short and the gains just enough, since my weak ancient age economy can't afford the attrition and the massive infrastructure building that has to be started on the new cities very well.

When I start on the Great Wall, I don't really want to build many more ancient age units since I am preparing for the large-scale unit (mainly knight) production stage before my first middle-age war. This preparation entails building barracks in most (if not all) my cities and saving up to upgrade some horsemen into knights. There is really no point building more swordsmen at this point and catapults are a bit too slow to keep up with the knights' blitz war. There is also a limit to how many horsemen you can upgrade to knights later on as the warmonger's authoritarian government and early economy can't produce that much gold. So, if you are waiting for knights and pikes, I think this strategy can work even for Deity and Sid.

While not always as helpful as I would like it to be, this option does help, sometimes significantly, to ensure the success of your early middle age expansion, which could be a game-breaking point. So I guess newbs and casual players might find this alternative strategy interesting to explore.

Haha, yes you can capture the Great Wall for this purpose. But that would mean having to fight through forces that are save behind those walls, which sucks when you are not much stronger than the enemy. And what if the rival civ who has it is not anywhere near you?

About the historical part, like in the game, the Great Wall was much more effective early on than later. But when the Ming (anti-Mongol) Dynasty came to power it did much to restore this wonder and bring it back to some effective use.
 
if only it was available in the industrial age, draft with a militaristic civ, win a battle and poof!, you get a promotion. :)
 
I was just thinking about how this wonder is more useful for an AI with towns fighting a human that uses artillery units. For those that are confused by this comment, when bombarding a town with free walls, it tries to bombard the walls, but can't, so it destroys other improvements (including the palace) or wonders. So bombarding units in towns is a waste of time, but you can bombard the Great Wall to solve the problem.
 
but you can bombard the Great Wall to solve the problem.

No, you can't destroy Great Wonders with bombardment. At least in PTW 1.27f and C3C 1.22. I don't know about any mods or different versions that allow you to destroy Great Wonders with artillery.
 
dominus romae said:
No, you can't destroy Great Wonders with bombardment. At least in PTW 1.27f and C3C 1.22. I don't know about any mods or different versions that allow you to destroy Great Wonders with artillery.

Aww man... :mischief: I wanted to catapult some GW's. ;)
 
Aww man... I wanted to catapult some GW's.

It would be interesting for you, then, to ask or download a mod that allows destruction of Great Wonders. But that's not my interest, because in multiplayer I would be doomed :(. However, in Single Player, AI Wonder Cascading effects would be almost nule. Thanks to my catapults :evil:.
 
oldStatesman said:
Wasn't the Great Wall built to keep invading Barbarians IN China after their incursions to prevent their escape with the loot? It was not really meant to keep them out....(Easy to ride past with empty saddle bags and no wagons...hard to cross with overloaded mounts and wagon loads of stolen goods...)

This reply is a bit belated, but yes, it was. Anyone who managed to get around it was chased into it by Chinese shock troops.
 
Those 300 shields - say 10 swordsmen will have conquered territory by the time you get Chivalry. Think in terms of Compound Interest, and the proposition looks less appetising.
 
if you get a leader (MGL in Vanilla/PTW, SGL in conquests) this is much more interesting, of course.

It's not so useful in the ancient age, but then, construction is usually one of the last things researched - that and currency - so it's possible that no one will build the wall until late ancient or early medieval - if you really speed up research, you can build it after expansion while you are building knights, etc. Heck - if you are good, you can time it to be built just as you upgrade your knights and go nuts on the world!
 
Top Bottom