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OFFICIAL DISCUSSION: Appointments and Absences

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Demo Game V: Citizens' started by Chieftess, Jan 26, 2005.

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  1. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

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    This is the discussion to determine how appointments (and challenges to appointments) are held. Absences issues will also be determined here.
     
  2. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    On absenses, the Freedom of Information proposed in the "other issues" discussion creates an easy way to measure absenses. All officials could be required to post in their respective official thread every n days (say 5 for arguments sake). Anyone who fails to post for one absense period gets a reminder note, sender of the note TBD. Anyone who fails to post in their official thread for a second consecutive absense period (total 10 days) is considered to have abandoned their post unless a planned absense is posted. In any case we should keep the rule that a person's backup (deputy or other designated backup) has the right and obligation to carry on the duties of the office.
     
  3. mhcarver

    mhcarver Newspaper Mogul

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    I think that presidential appointments should always be subject to some sort of confirmation poll. In my mind this means that they can either be sent to the house of the people for confirmation, or the members of the executive Branch can vote on the confirmation. But I think it must be clear that deputies appointed by governors or the equivalent of department heads in the wake of uncontested elections do not need to be subject to confirmation polls .
     
  4. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    Never more should the runner up become deputy, political enemies should be left to rot to let the integrity of the office stay intact for the term.
     
  5. Ashburnham

    Ashburnham King

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    I agree. If an official wins an election, they should be allowed to appoint whomever they'd like as their deputy.
     
  6. mhcarver

    mhcarver Newspaper Mogul

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    Hmmm, I hadn't thought about that issue but you two are right, the deputy as runner up could get a bit umm, tiring at times
     
  7. GenMarshall

    GenMarshall Night Elven Ghost Agent

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    Personaly, I would like to see the deputies being the runner up in the elections. In the times that I had been the runner up deputy, I have actualy gotten along with the leaders that I was the deputy to.

    Switching tracks. There should be a standard for absences and I am going to propose a couple of points and definitions.
    Offical Absence - A Planned absence that has been reported by a citizen or an elected offical. Usualy reported in an offical forum known as the "Absence Registery"

    Unoffical Absence - An absence that is not reported in the absence registery. There are numourous causes for this. The main reasons are oftenly Medical reasons when a citizen or an elected offical was involved in an accident or is taking care of a sick freind or relative.

    For Offical Absences, the time length for this should be a week while Unoffical Absences should be 3 days. Once the time length has been passed, the deputy would be apointed or the head of state (The president) apoints a new persion to take over the absent offical [u[if there are no deputies present[/u]
     
  8. blackheart

    blackheart unenlightened

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    If someone files an official absence, wouldn't they know how long they would be gone for and therefore let the deputy take charge for that ammount of time?
     
  9. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

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    Absence discussion summary:

    Two types: Official vs Unofficial.
    Official requires a post in a thread with estimated return date.
    Unofficial is everything else.

    At some point, a leader can become Absent, and removed from office.

    Discussion point: How to determine when a leader is absent.
    DG5: Fail to post instructions in two turn chats
    DS: Fail to post in official thread for 10 days

    -- Ravensfire
     
  10. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

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    Appointment discussion:

    Someone appoints a citizen to fulfill the term of a Vacant office.
    -- Vacancy could be from official declared Absent w/ no deputy
    -- Vacancy could be from official resigning w/ no deputy
    -- Vacancy could be from new Province reaching 3-4 cities

    Confirmation poll for appointments (DG5)

    Discussion points
    Anyone disagree with this?

    -- Ravensfire
     
  11. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    I approve of the DG5: Fail to post instructions in two consecutive turn chats point!
     
  12. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

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    Deputy discussion:

    Deputies are backups to officials, and fill in during absences
    -- DG4/5: Could post instructions if leader failed to do so X hours before chat session

    DG5: Deputy position offered to runner up in election
    DG4: Deputy position offered to anyone

    Discussion points:
    -- How to choose deputy
     
  13. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

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    Comments on deputies:

    As I noted, we tried the "Allow anyone to be a deputy" in DG4. It failed. Miserably. During term 4 (I think), I resigned as Domestic Minister fairly early on. I had been completely unable to find a deputy after repeated requests. During that game, there were multiple times that a deputy could not be found.

    This caused the return in DG5 to the deputy position being offered to the runner-up in the election.

    I'm not comfortable returning to a appoint anyone system. I understand Provo's view point ("political enemies rot"?), but it's been tried and did not work.

    -- Ravensfire
     
  14. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    As far as the appointment discussion, I'd have to say a Leader appoints his Deputy (offered to runner-up first), a Governor appoints his lieutenant(offered to the runner-up first), the President appoints all others (offering to the Deputy first) except the Judiciary handles the replacement of the President (whether their is a VP or not - the Judiciary would move the VP into position). If we use the Alternate Government plan, The Judiciary replaces all with approval polls afterwards. The rest looks good. That's if you were going to include all of these points.
     
  15. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

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    Cyc - I'll include anything - I'm just trying to push the discussions some so we can determine where polls are needed to get all of the common elements of the ruleset DONE.

    Good comments though.

    -- Ravensfire
     
  16. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    On deputies, let's examine the real problems and see what we can do to solve them.

    • If there is no deputy, and the leader cannot perform the duties of the office for whatever reason, then nothing gets done for that office.
      1. Some people dislike giving the DP the power to handle items with no instructions
      2. Some people dislike volunteers who step foward and take up the business of the office, even when such actions are marked unofficial
    • Deputy positions often go unfilled
      1. Unfair to force choice of the runner-up because there may be issues between the official and the runner-up
      2. Often there are no volunteers who step forward and apply for the deputyship
      3. Sometimes have trouble finding someone who will accept
      4. The deputy job isn't exactly a prime position, unless the official goes out of their way to make the job worth something

    Problem [a] can be alleviated by having a system of backups where each position has a designated backup, or by fixing the problems which lead to not having deputies. We could require a deputy to be appointed (or at least an appointment to be attempted) within n days after the election, for instance 2 days.

    Problem can be fixed in several ways. We could have a system which makes it easier to identify people who want a deputy position, like a deputy signup registry for each term. We could do something to induce leaders to give deputies meaningful work.
     
  17. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    :bump:

    So where do we stand with this? We're at the point where major decision points need to be polled.
     
  18. Black_Hole

    Black_Hole Deity

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    Problem is the your alternate gov wont use deputies, but we still dont know if we are using it... If we do have deputies the leader should have full control on who is his deputy(no runner ups) or the deputy is like a running mate
     
  19. GenMarshall

    GenMarshall Night Elven Ghost Agent

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    Well, I like the solution for problem B (Since it would be benifit for me both as a leader for an office or the persion whom totaly lost an election IE, dont make it to 2nd place). I mainly perfer having a runner-up to be chosen as a Deputy since he/she would have at least a foot in the door for office. I would agree with you that the Deputy possition is not a prime spot (and speeking from experiance from my start in the late DG1 and early DG2), Often times the deputy does not get to do anything meaningfull (there are exceptions though) that would get them into office. Often times a deputyship would have a dull side with virtualy little or no activity while the leader holds the spotlight and the chips. I beleve that the leader should give deputies some responsibility so that their deputies are not bored to tears.

    In short, I beleve that a deputy should be the runner-up slot (Unless the runner-up declines, then the leader is free to chose). I favor having some responsibilities to deputies so that they will not be bored and inclined to leave the demogame.
     
  20. Strider

    Strider In Retrospect

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    As I said close to the end of the game, in the first discussions of this type. Our trouble is that no one really wants to be a deputy, a mayor, a govornor, a leader. They are not really powerful, and you receive no extra bonus if you get elected to a poistion.

    Sure, DG4 if you got elected you had a city named whatever you wanted to, but that was taken away last game.

    It's about time we give our elected/appointed officials some real power. Allow them to make more choices by themselves, without citizen input.

    Untill we actually start doing this, it's going to keep getting harder to find people to fill our elected poistions.
     
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