OFFICIAL DISCUSSION: Government Structure, Branches & Duties

[YNCS]

I don't believe that enough citizens will take initiative. We've already decided that we're playing C3C. There are people who want to participate who don't have C3C, so they'll have to be given a very detailed description of what's happening in each turn for them to make informed decisions.

If, for instance, nobody is in charge of the sliders, then who will inform the non-Conquest-owning citizens of the status of sliders? If I am elected "Slider Tsar" and I don't inform people of the state of the sliders, then people can complain to and/or about me. If nobody is Slider Honcho, then all people can do is whine to the general population if they don't know the slider status. One or two whines and the person will just give up in disgust.

Blackheart, what you're proposing sounds great in theory. Unfortunately, there'll be some major problems in trying to run it.

 

[Provolution]

Well read YNCS, and the problem is that some of the soul-eaters in the game thrive in such an atmosphere that is conducive to whining and mudslinging, and only heavy handed moderation could reduce that. The last proposal is all about to remove all the power of leaders, all the motivations and simply snuff out the basis of a productive system.

 

[blackheart]

I don't believe that enough citizens will take initiative. We've already decided that we're playing C3C. There are people who want to participate who don't have C3C, so they'll have to be given a very detailed description of what's happening in each turn for them to make informed decisions.

If, for instance, nobody is in charge of the sliders, then who will inform the non-Conquest-owning citizens of the status of sliders? If I am elected "Slider Tsar" and I don't inform people of the state of the sliders, then people can complain to and/or about me. If nobody is Slider Honcho, then all people can do is whine to the general population if they don't know the slider status. One or two whines and the person will just give up in disgust.

Blackheart, what you're proposing sounds great in theory. Unfortunately, there'll be some major problems in trying to run it.

That's also the problem with the current system isn't it? I thought we were trying to make it so people without C3C can still hold government positions. Who's going to give info about the game then? This isn't a system of work like real life, where everyone is forced to go, we're here on our own accord.

Provo, shut up about whining and mudslinging would you? I think we've seen enough of it in your posts to know it exists by now.

Moderator Action: And that goes for you too, Blackheart. I'm fed up with you, Provo and Blackheart flaming eachother. I hope you 2 won't need a cooling-down period. - Warned!! - Rik

 

[Provolution]

Blackheart, I am talking in generics here, and we try to find a way to remedy it.
I will not attack you, but you seem bent on attacking me. Please stop will you.

 

[blackheart]

Blackheart, I am talking in generics here, and we try to find a way to remedy it.
I will not attack you, but you seem bent on attacking me. Please stop will you.

Generics with a slightly leaning curve towards people, which you seem to do A LOT. We get it, you've been attacked and such, give it a rest and stop bringing up the past in most of your posts. Is it really necessary to keep talking about a "veteran conspiracy" and those darn "bashers" and "mudslingers" at every twist and turn?

 

[Provolution]

I suggest we quit commenting each other, and never ever refer to each others nicks again. I am through with this, but I sure will argue for patching up some legal holes and systemic gaps that make such methods, yes methods me and many others have used to put down the other sides arguments. Right now, it seems like you are the only player left with a thorn in my side, whereas I can actually reason and discuss things with the others I had my disagreements with. I will leave the past, and not mention nicks, but I will refer to deep problems with the present structure that causes problems for the present, as well as newcomers. I think things worked just fine prior to Term V, and we could rewind the clock and start all over. as YNCS says, leave past conflicts behind, but learn from the mistakes, and I sure has learnt from mine.

Polling standards
Naming convention
government structure
term organization

and so on.

Many would agree with me on that direct democracy would fail here, but I am sure I am the one you will give "special" treatment in your response.

 

[ravensfire]

Summary:

With significant work being done on the alternate government style, the traditional government style will need to be worked on simultaneously if we want to meet the deadline.

I'm working on the non-government parts of the ruleset, and the alternate government stuff. It would be really, REALLY helpful if someone would step up and push all discussions on the traditional government style.

Using the DG5 ruleset, this would be the following articles:
Article D - Executive Branch
Article E - Legislative Branch

This should go up to creating the text that would be used in each article. This will greatly help in enabling us to meet the deadline with a full ruleset should we decide to go with the traditional style of government.

Thanks,
-- Ravensfire

 

[blackheart]

I suggest we quit commenting each other, and never ever refer to each others nicks again. I am through with this, but I sure will argue for patching up some legal holes and systemic gaps that make such methods, yes methods me and many others have used to put down the other sides arguments. Right now, it seems like you are the only player left with a thorn in my side, whereas I can actually reason and discuss things with the others I had my disagreements with. I will leave the past, and not mention nicks, but I will refer to deep problems with the present structure that causes problems for the present, as well as newcomers. I think things worked just fine prior to Term V, and we could rewind the clock and start all over. as YNCS says, leave past conflicts behind, but learn from the mistakes, and I sure has learnt from mine.

Many would agree with me on that direct democracy would fail here, but I am sure I am the one you will give "special" treatment in your response.

The problems with the DG5 problems aren't problems that are going to be solved. They're present in real world governments as much as virtual ones. They're a corner of how humans interact socially. You can't completely eliminate "popular block voting" or grudges.

That's one of the inherent problems of the DG5 system, people in power have may grudges against people who are not, and therefore requests or proposals may be ignored.

As for direct democracy, sure it is highly idealistic, but all things made real start with an idea. Freedom and representative government was highly idealistic until they were fought for and won. I don't think direct democracy would fail here, the people who participate are intelligent and civilized enough to work out problems (most anyways).

 

[Strider]

Here what I propose for our const., based on the tradational DG5 one:

Article A. Citizen Rights
All Civfanatics Forum users who register in the Citizen Registry are citizens of our country. Citizens have the right to assemble, the right to free movement, the right to free speech, the right to a fair trial, the right to representation, the right to seek to redress grievances and the right to vote.

Article B. Laws and Rules
Governing rules shall consist of these Articles of the Constitution, such amendments that shall follow. No rule shall be valid that contradicts these Articles. The Constitution amendments can be added/modified/removed when the need arises.

Article C.Basic Government
The government will consist of the Executive Branch, Legislative Branch and Judicial Branch.

Article D. The Executive Branch
The Executive branch is responsible for determining and implementing the will of the People, and is headed by the President. The President is charged with organizing and monitoring the affairs of the Ministers, and is also the primary designated player. The President shall take direction from a council of leaders and from other elected and appointed officials via the turnchat instruction thread, including worker actions. The President is also charged with appointing citizens to uncontested elections, the election office, and the Naming Commission.
Section 1. Domestic Affairs
The Minister of Domestic Affairs shall be responsible for all domestic initiatives, worker allocation, as well as the distribution of funds.
Section 2. Foreign Affairs
The Minister of Foreign Affairs shall be responsiblefor matters involving treaties with foreign nations as well as all espionage and embassy missions.
Section 3. Defensive Affairs
The Minister of Defense shall be responsible for all military strategy, troop activities, and unit upgrades.
Section 4. Trade
The Minister of Trade shall be responsible for all trade, domestic and foreign, and the use of resources.
Section 5. Research and Technology
The Minister of Science shall be responsible for all tech acquisition, foreign and domestic.
Section 6. Cultural Affairs
The Minister of Culture shall be responsible for the construction of wonders, as well as the analysis and maintenance of cultural borders. This official shall also be responsible for monitoring Japanatica's cultural level against that of all rival nations.

Article E. Legislative Branch
The Legislative Branch shall be formed of the House of the People and Governors of [Insert Nation Name Here].
Section 1. The House of the People
The House of the People will be formed of the entirety of the citizenry and is responsible for the drafting of new Laws and Amendments to the Constitution. The House will present all proposed Articles, Amendments and Laws to the Judicial Branch for review.
Section 2. The Governors
Governors are responsible for the care, management, use of the cities, and use of lands of a province through the setting of build queues, allocation of laborers on tiles, population rushes and drafting of citizen soldiers.

Article F. The Judicial Branch
The Judicial Branch will consist of one Chief Justice, one Public Defender and a Judge Advocate. These three justices are tasked with upholding the Constitution and its supporting laws (if any) in a fair and impartial manner as prescribed by law. The Chief Justice shall have the additional responsibility to organize and conduct the affairs of the Judicial Branch. The Public Defender will act as council to an accused individual. The Judge Advocate will act as the prosecution.

Section 1. Judicial Procedures
The elected Judiciary shall create there procedures once elect it, to be located in the first post of the Judiciary thread. Any change following the Judiciary's acceptance of these procedures will require the Will of the Citizenry.

Article G. Elections, the Election Office, and Deputies
Section 1. Elections
All elected positions shall have a fixed term of onemonth. Each position will be granted to the candidatereceiving the largest number of votes in that election. In the event of a tie between two or more frontrunners, a runoff poll shall be opened between thosecandidates only. This poll shall run for 2 days, and be repeated as often as needed to resolve the tie.

Section 2. Deputies
All Executive and Legislative positions shall have a deputy. The Deputy will be permitted to conduct the affairs of the office as directed, or during a planned Absence of the elected official. If no instructions have been posted for an office within 24 hours of the upcoming Turn Chat, the deputy for that office may post the official instructions for the office. The Judiciary does not use deputies. In the event of an Absence, a pro-tem justice(s) may be appointed by the Chief Justice (or Judge Advocate if the Chief Justice if absent and confirmed by the President and the remaining justice if not also absent. If both the Chief Justice and the Judge Advocate are absent, the Public Defender may appoint pro-tems to the other seats, with Presidential approval.
Section 3. Appointments
The President will appoint a citizen to any Vacant office. If a deputy exists for that office, the President must appoint that citizen. This appointment may be challenged by any citizen by that citizen posting a confirmation poll within 24 hours of the appointment.

Article H. Multiple Poistions
No person shall hold multiple positions of leadership (President, Vice-President, Department Leader, Judiciary, Provincial Governor, Deputy) simultaneously.

Article I. Census, and Amending the Constitution
The census shall be defined as the average number of votes cast, dropping fractions, in each of the contested elections in the most recent general election.Ratification of Amendments to the Constitution shall require each of the following.
Section 1. Time Limits
A poll which is open for at least 96 hours, which states the text of the proposed new section(s), the text of the section(s) being replaced, and posing the question in the form of yes / no / abstain.
Section 2. Citizen Approval
A 67% majority of Yes votes over No votes, Abstain notwithstanding.
Section 3. Census
A total number of votes greater than or equal to 2/3 the census current at the start of voting on the amendment, dropping any fraction therein.

Article J. The Will of the People
Elected officials must plan and act according to the will of the people. The will of the people will be determined through discussion and polls, formal or informal. If pertinent discussion is done outside the scope of the DG forums, then it must be documented in the Turnchat Instruction Thread 6 hours prior to the commencement of the turnchat by the appropriate leader.

Article K. Turnchats/Turnchat Instruction Thread
All irreversible game actions must progress during a public turnchat, while reversible game actions (i.e. build queues) that adhere to legal instructions can be prepared offline.
Section 1. Turnchat Instruction Thread
A turnchat instruction thread must be created at least 3 days before the chat. All official instructions must be posted in the current turnchat instruction thread. Instructions must be clear and defined. Officials must post their instructions at least one hour before the Turnchat. However, offcials may make changes to their instructions up to an hour before the chat, so long as those changes are noted. The Designated Player shall be charged with the creation of a date and time for all public turnchats.

Article L. CivFanatics Forum Rules
The constitution, laws and standards of Japanatica can never be contrary to the rules and regulations of the Civfanatics forums. Moderators may veto any such constitutional amendments, laws or standards.

Article M. Commission of Game Actions
Commission of any game action by any person other than the Designated Player while carrying out their duties that is not instantly reversible without reloading the save is strictly forbidden. Exception: Determining options in the renegotiation of Peace agreements requires an action of acceptance or war to exit the bargain screen. This may be done but the game must be immediately closed without saving.

Article N Rights Reserved to the People
Rights reserved to the people As provided by Article A of this constitution, all actions not forbidden by forum rules, or by this Constitution, are presumed to be within the right of every citizen. Actions prescribed by this Constitution may be substituted by other similar actions, provided such substitution lies within the spirit of these rules.

Article O Provinces
The area contained within the national boundaries of Japanatica shall be divided into areas called provinces, each of which is under the control of a Governor as stated in Article E. of theConstitution. These boundries must be defined and approved by the House well ahead of expansion, and may extend beyond the cultural boundaries. City locations shall be determined by the Will of the People.

Article P. Freedom of Information
All elected/appointed officials are charged with the duty to post enough information for the citizens to make a informed decision. This includes information from the save, discussions, and past polls.
Section 1.Ministry Threads
Each Minister shall post a basic department update, every turnchat, inside of the respective Ministry thread.

This is what I propose as the basic format of the tradational constitution. I re-formatted it into a Article/Section format, whereas it was orginally a mix of three differant formats rolled into one. I also added a Short description by each Article/Section for easy browsing. It is also copy/paste friendly .

Edit: Also, yes I do know that the bit about the election office is missing, and I also plan on adding something about the Naming Commission in there also. The formor I could not find the exact coding, and the latter I wanted to wait to see how the discussion turned out.

Edit2: Added Article P. Freedom of Information

Edit3: Changed Article F. to a more citizenry accepted format.

 

[blackheart]

You should add something in there about when to start elections for the next turn, etc.

 

[Strider]

You should add something in there about when to start elections for the next turn, etc.

That'll go with the election office portion, and I can't find that thread. Anyway (can a mod with search help alittle bit?)

I'm also thinking of something called the "Common Sense Clause." This will basicly make anything legal that would normally be illegal, if you do a strict interpretation of the const.

For an example, the time when Rik Meleet moved the slider down, although it was against the law (We still got the tech in the same # of turns, but got more gold).

It'll hopefully kill some of the bickering and keep some load off of the Judiciary. However, I can't think of anyway to write it, without requiring alittle bit of common sense to interpret. So I'll likely just leave it out.

 

[Ashburnham]

I definately don't like the idea of a "common sense clause". It sounds too much like a slippery slope allowing those participating in the Turnchat to run the game. "Common sense" is simply too open to interpretation.

 

[ravensfire]

Folks - not to be a pain here, but we've got a lot of discussions underway about the part of the ruleset common to both styles of Government, including elections,etc.

Please use 'em to keep things focused. Use this thread to focus on those areas of the ruleset that will differ between the two styles.

Please?

-- Ravensfire

 

[Strider]

Folks - not to be a pain here, but we've got a lot of discussions underway about the part of the ruleset common to both styles of Government, including elections,etc.

Please use 'em to keep things focused. Use this thread to focus on those areas of the ruleset that will differ between the two styles.

Please?

-- Ravensfire

I don't think that will be entirely possible, as there are several articles outside of the major differances that will need some small editing. I wouldn't support any constitution if it was just abunch of articles copy and pasted together. Hell, when I went through the DG5 const., there was still clauses saying the wrong nation name. And as I said above, there was a standard format to the constitution either. It will be much better to get both the modified tradational and alternative in a full constitutional proposal, and let the citizens decide.

 

[YNCS]

I notice, Strider, that you inserted your proposed changes into Article F. The typos are identical.

 

[blackheart]

That'll go with the election office portion, and I can't find that thread. Anyway (can a mod with search help alittle bit?)

I'm also thinking of something called the "Common Sense Clause." This will basicly make anything legal that would normally be illegal, if you do a strict interpretation of the const.

For an example, the time when Rik Meleet moved the slider down, although it was against the law (We still got the tech in the same # of turns, but got more gold).

It'll hopefully kill some of the bickering and keep some load off of the Judiciary. However, I can't think of anyway to write it, without requiring alittle bit of common sense to interpret. So I'll likely just leave it out.

Common sense isn't all too common
A common sense law would be very hard to enforce, as each person would view things differently.

 

[ravensfire]

I don't think that will be entirely possible, as there are several articles outside of the major differances that will need some small editing. I wouldn't support any constitution if it was just abunch of articles copy and pasted together. Hell, when I went through the DG5 const., there was still clauses saying the wrong nation name. And as I said above, there was a standard format to the constitution either. It will be much better to get both the modified tradational and alternative in a full constitutional proposal, and let the citizens decide.

Strider - the small edits are, for the most part, simple to take care of. Note them. Explain them.

But this should be about the specifics of the traditional style of Government.

And so, on to my comments.

Article D.

• Who controls/organizes worker actions?
• Under domestic minister, what does "allocate workers" mean? Seriously - that was in DG 5, and I don't remember that being used.
• Trade minister: What does "use of resources" mean? I'm guessing trade, so isn't that redundant?
• No mention of spaceship parts? After the comments you've made about them being missed in the past?
  
  -- Ravensfire

 

[Strider]

Strider - the small edits are, for the most part, simple to take care of. Note them. Explain them.

But this should be about the specifics of the traditional style of Government.

And so, on to my comments.

Article D.

• Who controls/organizes worker actions?
• Under domestic minister, what does "allocate workers" mean? Seriously - that was in DG 5, and I don't remember that being used.
• Trade minister: What does "use of resources" mean? I'm guessing trade, so isn't that redundant?
• No mention of spaceship parts? After the comments you've made about them being missed in the past?
  
  -- Ravensfire

• 
  
  I have no idea what worker allocation means either, and I believe I said something about that somewhere. Either way, I didn't know what it was, so I left it alone. Can't hurt.
  
  I believe "use of resources" means he has the choice on wether or not to hook our second iron up or something like that. About the same as above though, didn't know exactly what it was, so I just left it alone.
  
  Actually, that is my fault. I saw that Foreign Affairs had Espionage listed under them already, as that was one of the things I said along with the parts, I figured it was in there also, and didn't think much about that. Hey, afterall, it's why I posted it here, to find mistakes I might have made. It'll be fixed once I finish posting this.
  
  I still disagree, just the format can make a differance, and it will be much better to have the whole thing out there, just incase you miss one of those little things.

 

[ravensfire]

"I don't knows" are bad reasons to keep things in a ruleset. I think you need to clarify, move or remove them. If you don't know what they mean, why do you assume someone else does?

I would suggest not continually editing the same post though, and repost the changed sections. It's a great deal easier for everyone to read and follow.

-- Ravensfire

 

[DaveShack]

If the version Strider posted was copied from my starting point thread, then I can explain the "worker allocation" thing. Actually, I can explain it anyway even if it wasn't copied from my thread.

The concept is to have domestic control how many workers each province has, but let the governors handle instructions on what tiles to improve and how. The DP then has lattitude to accomplish the governor's priorities in the most efficient way.

BTW this is a perfect example of the way work would be divided in the alternative proposal.