1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

OFFICIAL DISCUSSION: Political Parties and Block Voting

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Demo Game V: Citizens' started by Strider, Feb 5, 2005.

  1. Strider

    Strider In Retrospect

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2002
    Messages:
    8,984
    I've seen no discussion on this yet, and after a quick skim of the current Official Discussions threads I didn't see one, so I'll start it.

    Political Parties and Block Voting has been banned from the start for the demogame. It was orginally believed that they will tear apart the game. However, there has been a good amount of support to allowing Political Parties, but disallowing Block Voting.

    Discuss.
     
  2. Black_Hole

    Black_Hole Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2004
    Messages:
    3,424
    Polictical Parties: A group having the same beliefs(i.e. War Mongerers or Trade with Everyon Club)
    Block Voting: People in a group only vote for other people in that group.

    I am for blocking block voting but against blocking political parties.
    If we block political parties then we basically block all citizen groups
     
  3. Strider

    Strider In Retrospect

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2002
    Messages:
    8,984
    By your definition of both, blocking one or not the other is just asking for alot of CC's. If you are in a Political Party with someone else, because they share your beliefs, are you not going to vote for them? Why would you vote against them?

    I see we either ban them both, or allow both of them.
     
  4. Black_Hole

    Black_Hole Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2004
    Messages:
    3,424
    well banning both allows no citizen groups, and banning neither allows people to say "I will vote for you if you vote for me"
    Just because people share one belief doesnt mean they will vote for them
     
  5. Ashburnham

    Ashburnham King

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2004
    Messages:
    827
    An inherent part of political parties is bloc voting. There's no way around it. If we allow political parties into the Demogame, we will being sowing the seeds of chaos and division.
     
  6. Black_Hole

    Black_Hole Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2004
    Messages:
    3,424
    but this blocks almost any citizen group like:

    "War Mongerers"
    "Traders"
    etc
     
  7. blackheart

    blackheart unenlightened

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,633
    Location:
    Chicago
    There's already bloc voting going on, of course you can't really define bloc voting because some people just agree with each other on many subjects.

    Bloc voting isn't part of political parties, its part of blind following.
     
  8. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    13,108
    Location:
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    The difference between citizens groups and political parties, in the context of the demogame, is in the type of focus. Both are gatherings of people who tend to have the same position on an issue or group of issues. A political party or voting block goes further by organizing the votes of its members for or against candidates or issues, and focuses mainly on its members and their activities. Another characteristic which differentiates a political party from a simple citizens group is that all members of a party are strongly encouraged to speak with one voice on an issue, where citizen group members may disagree with the group on specific instances while maintaining their belief in the general principles of the group.

    Warning signs a citizen's group is becoming a political party:
    • A hierarchy develops among its members.
    • Its members publically call for other members to take a certain course of action. In more advanced stages its members publically criticize other members for failing to follow the party line.
    • Its members concentrate their actions on discrediting those who are not members, with special emphasis on members of opposing groups

    The bottom line in all of this is that a coercive environment is not allowed. If members of the group are free to speak and vote their own conscience without fear of reprisal from other group members, then it probably isn't a political party.
     
  9. Ashburnham

    Ashburnham King

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2004
    Messages:
    827
    Thank you, DaveShack.

    Another key difference between citizen groups and political parties is amassing power. One of the goals of a political party is to increase their power in a government and eventually control it. Citizen groups want no such thing, they just want to represent their stance on a certain issue.

    There's also the fact that political parties are far more divisive than citizen groups. When citizens join a group, they are not doing it to the exclusion of other groups. A citizen can be in the "Trader" group and in the "War Monger" group. The same cannot be said of political parties. Political parties will divide the Demogame into seperate blocs of power the way citizen groups never have.
     
  10. Black_Hole

    Black_Hole Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2004
    Messages:
    3,424
    If we ban political parties we need to have some guidelines to what a political party is
     
  11. Civanator

    Civanator Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2001
    Messages:
    2,865
    Location:
    Gone
    All we say is no political parties, and walla, no political parties. It's worked for 3 years and 5 demogames, and I don't see why it won't work now.
     
  12. YNCS

    YNCS Ex-bubblehead

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2003
    Messages:
    3,098
    Location:
    -4 GMT
    A Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court once said about pornography: "I can't describe it, but I know it when I see it." The same rationale is probably true of Demogame political parties.
     
  13. blackheart

    blackheart unenlightened

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,633
    Location:
    Chicago
    :lol: There are many things shown on TV today that are on the brink of being pornography yet aren't considered it. Some citizen groups could be wolf in sheep clothing.
     
  14. Strider

    Strider In Retrospect

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2002
    Messages:
    8,984
    Agreed, lets just let the Judiciary decide when a Citizen Group has become a Political Party.
     
  15. Ashburnham

    Ashburnham King

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2004
    Messages:
    827
    That's not exactly what he meant, he was just using an example. :rolleyes:

    I'm not sure why all this criticism of citizen groups has surfaced all of a sudden. There wasn't a problem of citizen groups organizing bloc votes in DG5. From what I saw, they did very little other than to serve as forms of expression for certain citizens. I would be interested if one of the more senior players here could point to a time when citizen groups acted like political parties. If there are instances of such actions, then we should definately be careful; but to my knowledge this fear of citizen groups turning into political parties is unfounded.
     
  16. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2002
    Messages:
    24,160
    Location:
    Baltimore
    The origanal reason political parties were cut from the demogame was the mess it made back in the Civ2 demogame. It would become unfair for newcomers as political parties would always vote for the same person (since we have no term limits, that could be every term).
     
  17. YNCS

    YNCS Ex-bubblehead

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2003
    Messages:
    3,098
    Location:
    -4 GMT
    If someone thinks a citizen group is becoming a political party, let them CC that group.

    I worry more about the wolf in wolf's clothing.

    There's always going to be people who, for one reason or another, agree on certain topics. This is how political parties, or any other group, arise. If someone is concerned that citizen groups are turning into political parties, then let him/her monitor citizen groups' activities. Just beware of crying "wolf."
     
  18. blackheart

    blackheart unenlightened

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,633
    Location:
    Chicago
    It is very hard to monitor group's activities. It is not as if they are going to post in their thread who everyone should vote for. All of this is probably done backstage.
     
  19. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    13,108
    Location:
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    If a voting block or political party does get organized, eventually someone is likely to slip up and disclose its activities.

    We have done very well in the past with saying "no political parties" and leaving it at that. No reason to think we can't just go with the flow on this one.
     
  20. GenMarshall

    GenMarshall Night Elven Ghost Agent

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2002
    Messages:
    42,907
    Location:
    Versailles City, Vekta, United Terran Systems
    Just use one rule...

    No Political Parties

    Short, simple, and sweet. Its worked in past demogames and should work in future demogames.
     

Share This Page