OFFICIAL DISCUSSION: Political Parties and Block Voting

[Strider]

I've seen no discussion on this yet, and after a quick skim of the current Official Discussions threads I didn't see one, so I'll start it.

Political Parties and Block Voting has been banned from the start for the demogame. It was orginally believed that they will tear apart the game. However, there has been a good amount of support to allowing Political Parties, but disallowing Block Voting.

Discuss.

 

[Black_Hole]

Polictical Parties: A group having the same beliefs(i.e. War Mongerers or Trade with Everyon Club)
Block Voting: People in a group only vote for other people in that group.

I am for blocking block voting but against blocking political parties.
If we block political parties then we basically block all citizen groups

 

[Strider]

Polictical Parties: A group having the same beliefs(i.e. War Mongerers or Trade with Everyon Club)
Block Voting: People in a group only vote for other people in that group.

I am for blocking block voting but against blocking political parties.
If we block political parties then we basically block all citizen groups

By your definition of both, blocking one or not the other is just asking for alot of CC's. If you are in a Political Party with someone else, because they share your beliefs, are you not going to vote for them? Why would you vote against them?

I see we either ban them both, or allow both of them.

 

[Black_Hole]

By your definition of both, blocking one or not the other is just asking for alot of CC's. If you are in a Political Party with someone else, because they share your beliefs, are you not going to vote for them? Why would you vote against them?

I see we either ban them both, or allow both of them.

well banning both allows no citizen groups, and banning neither allows people to say "I will vote for you if you vote for me"
Just because people share one belief doesnt mean they will vote for them

 

[Ashburnham]

An inherent part of political parties is bloc voting. There's no way around it. If we allow political parties into the Demogame, we will being sowing the seeds of chaos and division.

 

[Black_Hole]

An inherent part of political parties is bloc voting. There's no way around it. If we allow political parties into the Demogame, we will being sowing the seeds of chaos and division.

but this blocks almost any citizen group like:

"War Mongerers"
"Traders"
etc

 

[blackheart]

An inherent part of political parties is bloc voting. There's no way around it. If we allow political parties into the Demogame, we will being sowing the seeds of chaos and division.

There's already bloc voting going on, of course you can't really define bloc voting because some people just agree with each other on many subjects.

Bloc voting isn't part of political parties, its part of blind following.

 

[DaveShack]

The difference between citizens groups and political parties, in the context of the demogame, is in the type of focus. Both are gatherings of people who tend to have the same position on an issue or group of issues. A political party or voting block goes further by organizing the votes of its members for or against candidates or issues, and focuses mainly on its members and their activities. Another characteristic which differentiates a political party from a simple citizens group is that all members of a party are strongly encouraged to speak with one voice on an issue, where citizen group members may disagree with the group on specific instances while maintaining their belief in the general principles of the group.

Warning signs a citizen's group is becoming a political party:

• A hierarchy develops among its members.
• Its members publically call for other members to take a certain course of action. In more advanced stages its members publically criticize other members for failing to follow the party line.
• Its members concentrate their actions on discrediting those who are not members, with special emphasis on members of opposing groups

The bottom line in all of this is that a coercive environment is not allowed. If members of the group are free to speak and vote their own conscience without fear of reprisal from other group members, then it probably isn't a political party.

 

[Ashburnham]

Thank you, DaveShack.

Another key difference between citizen groups and political parties is amassing power. One of the goals of a political party is to increase their power in a government and eventually control it. Citizen groups want no such thing, they just want to represent their stance on a certain issue.

There's also the fact that political parties are far more divisive than citizen groups. When citizens join a group, they are not doing it to the exclusion of other groups. A citizen can be in the "Trader" group and in the "War Monger" group. The same cannot be said of political parties. Political parties will divide the Demogame into seperate blocs of power the way citizen groups never have.

 

[Black_Hole]

If we ban political parties we need to have some guidelines to what a political party is

 

[Civanator]

All we say is no political parties, and walla, no political parties. It's worked for 3 years and 5 demogames, and I don't see why it won't work now.

 

[YNCS]

If we ban political parties we need to have some guidelines to what a political party is

A Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court once said about pornography: "I can't describe it, but I know it when I see it." The same rationale is probably true of Demogame political parties.

 

[blackheart]

A Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court once said about pornography: "I can't describe it, but I know it when I see it." The same rationale is probably true of Demogame political parties.

There are many things shown on TV today that are on the brink of being pornography yet aren't considered it. Some citizen groups could be wolf in sheep clothing.

 

[Strider]

A Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court once said about pornography: "I can't describe it, but I know it when I see it." The same rationale is probably true of Demogame political parties.

Agreed, lets just let the Judiciary decide when a Citizen Group has become a Political Party.

 

[Ashburnham]

Agreed, lets just let the Judiciary decide when a Citizen Group has become a Political Party.

That's not exactly what he meant, he was just using an example.

I'm not sure why all this criticism of citizen groups has surfaced all of a sudden. There wasn't a problem of citizen groups organizing bloc votes in DG5. From what I saw, they did very little other than to serve as forms of expression for certain citizens. I would be interested if one of the more senior players here could point to a time when citizen groups acted like political parties. If there are instances of such actions, then we should definately be careful; but to my knowledge this fear of citizen groups turning into political parties is unfounded.

 

[Chieftess]

The origanal reason political parties were cut from the demogame was the mess it made back in the Civ2 demogame. It would become unfair for newcomers as political parties would always vote for the same person (since we have no term limits, that could be every term).

 

[YNCS]

If someone thinks a citizen group is becoming a political party, let them CC that group.

Some citizen groups could be wolf in sheep clothing.

I worry more about the wolf in wolf's clothing.

There's always going to be people who, for one reason or another, agree on certain topics. This is how political parties, or any other group, arise. If someone is concerned that citizen groups are turning into political parties, then let him/her monitor citizen groups' activities. Just beware of crying "wolf."

 

[blackheart]

There's always going to be people who, for one reason or another, agree on certain topics. This is how political parties, or any other group, arise. If someone is concerned that citizen groups are turning into political parties, then let him/her monitor citizen groups' activities. Just beware of crying "wolf."

It is very hard to monitor group's activities. It is not as if they are going to post in their thread who everyone should vote for. All of this is probably done backstage.

 

[DaveShack]

It is very hard to monitor group's activities. It is not as if they are going to post in their thread who everyone should vote for. All of this is probably done backstage.

If a voting block or political party does get organized, eventually someone is likely to slip up and disclose its activities.

We have done very well in the past with saying "no political parties" and leaving it at that. No reason to think we can't just go with the flow on this one.

 

[GenMarshall]

Just use one rule...

No Political Parties

Short, simple, and sweet. Its worked in past demogames and should work in future demogames.