OFFICIAL DISCUSSION: Polls, Amendments and Quorums

[Chieftess]

This is the discussion to determine mainly how polls are to be dealt with, as well as amendments, and quorums.

 

[DaveShack]

This isn't how we normally do things, but:

1. All polls shall be public except those types of polls which are specifically designated by law as being required to be private.
2. The following types of polls, which have the purpose of choosing and/or judging individuals, shall be private.
a. Elections
b. Polls confirming or denying appointments
c. Polls to determine guilt or innocence.
d. Polls to determine sentencing
3. Only registered citizens are authorized to vote in polls. The results of public polls may be checked against the citizen registry, and votes by people who are not registered may be deducted from the poll results. Any citizen may challenge the result of a private poll by requesting the moderators to verify citizenship of all persons voting, and adjust the vote totals accordingly.

4. Amendments to the constitution require (a 2/3 majority of all votes cast), or (a simple majority of all votes cast and a number of votes cast more than 60% of the census). The census is the lesser of the average number of votes cast for all offices in the most recent election, or 80% of the number of votes cast in the most recent ratification vote, or 80% of the votes cast in a quorum vote called for the purpose of establishing a true census.

Edited to imrpove formatting for the ratification forumua.

 

[GenMarshall]

Another thing to bring onto the table about polls is to debate wether or not to use the Public Polls for Offical polls.

(Non-offical polls such as Informal and Survey polls should be exempt from the poll regulations so long as they are stated so)

 

[DaveShack]

Another thing to bring onto the table about polls is to debate wether or not to use the Public Polls for Offical polls.

(Non-offical polls such as Informal and Survey polls should be exempt from the poll regulations so long as they are stated so)

I suggested the following, above

1. All polls shall be public except those types of polls which are specifically designated by law as being required to be private.

2. The following types of polls, which have the purpose of choosing and/or judging individuals, shall be private.
a. Elections
b. Polls confirming or denying appointments
c. Polls to determine guilt or innocence.
d. Polls to determine sentencing

 

[Ashburnham]

I agree with DaveShack's suggestions. However, I would also like to see Civgeneral's comments about unofficial/informal being exempt from the regulations added.

 

[mhcarver]

I agree Ash, DS, and CG on this one

 

[ravensfire]

Like most of it, DS, except for changing the Constitution. That's the core law, it's our basic structure - it should be hard to change. Keep a solid quorum and a solid majority for the Constitution. You've got to convince more than just half the people that this is a good idea to change the basic structure. That's where the stability for the game comes from.

Now, for the CoL - heck - just convince half the voters is good enough for me.

-- Ravensfire

 

[DaveShack]

I agree with DaveShack's suggestions. However, I would also like to see Civgeneral's comments about unofficial/informal being exempt from the regulations added.

Unofficial / informal polls (explicitly marked as such) are outside the rules in my opinion, and therefore not subject to the requirement to be public. Note however that I do not agree with the position of some, that polls opened by citizens other than the leader for an area are automatically unofficial. If the official isn't on the ball or refuses to poll an issue, then the citizen can hold an initiative poll to force the issue. There should be an expectation of fair play though, one should always approach the responsible party before interceding.

 

[blackheart]

Polling rules? Bah! Polling standards? Yes!

 

[donsig]

I agree with DaveShack's suggestions. However, I would also like to see Civgeneral's comments about unofficial/informal being exempt from the regulations added.

If a poll is to be exempt then what is the purpose of having such a poll? Leaving the door open allows for any and all polls to be unofficial/informal thereby undermining the regulations. Unless regulations are applied to all polls there might as well be no regulations at all.

 

[GenMarshall]

If a poll is to be exempt then what is the purpose of having such a poll? Leaving the door open allows for any and all polls to be unofficial/informal thereby undermining the regulations. Unless regulations are applied to all polls there might as well be no regulations at all.

I was refering to polls such as the "Citizen's Pulse" polls which are basicly survey polls which gives a deaper impression on what the citizens feel about the game in general.

 

[Cyc]

I was refering to polls such as the "Citizen's Pulse" polls which are basicly survey polls which gives a deaper impression on what the citizens feel about the game in general.

Regardless, CG, I agree with donsig. What he said makes perfect sense. When I read you statement, I think, "Why would citizens be afraid of openly stating their opinion in a survey poll?" I remember when I put up a poll that asked for people to state their preference of civ color for our Japanatica tribe. Red or Green? I can tell you right now, I was so fearful that others knew my choice of color that I almost voted Abstain!

Sorry, I just don't see your reasoning.

 

[Ashburnham]

If a poll is to be exempt then what is the purpose of having such a poll? Leaving the door open allows for any and all polls to be unofficial/informal thereby undermining the regulations. Unless regulations are applied to all polls there might as well be no regulations at all.

The basic idea behind "informal" polls is that they can not be used as official measures of the WOTP. If an official were to use only informal polls when making decisions, they would be in dereliction of their duty because informal polls are not accurate descriptions of the will of the people. Thus, informal polls do not need to follow the regulations that would bind official polls. An informal poll can be whatever it wants, it's informal.

 

[Eklektikos]

Polling standards? Yes!

Quite.

We really need to enforce practices which ensure that poll options are clear to the electorate and that the results given by a poll are not a matter for debate.

This thread from DG2 would make a good starting point for a discussion on the subject in my opinion.

 

[Provolution]

Why not repost the darn Polling 101 and learn us this magic trade, in place of keeping it as a classified mocking tool for garnering undeserved political power and persecuting hapless pollers not introduced to this secret lore of yours. When all of us have learnt this higher art, it will be democratized, and would be hard to use as a sophist tool of supressing debaters someone does not agree with. Also pin down the Will of the people when we are at it. All DG experience brought into this game should be documented and polled into the legislation.

 

[ravensfire]

Poll discussion:

NOTE: Polling standards are located here, please discuss them there! Thanks!

Discussion points:
-- What makes a poll unofficial?
-- Are leaders bound by another leader's poll?
-- If a poll does not meet set criteria, is it valid? (see PSC)
-- If a poll does not meet suggested criteria, is it valid? (see PSC)

-- Ravensfire

 

[ravensfire]

Quorum and Amendment discussion:

Census:
-- DG5: census was average number of votes in contested elections

Quorum:
-- DG5: 2/3 of census for Constitution
-- DG5: 37% of census for CoL

Approval:
-- DG5: 67% of non-abstain votes must approve
-- DG5: 55% of votes must approve

Discussion points
-- Define Census
-- Define Quorum
-- Define Amendment process (including Judicial Review)

-- Ravensfire

 

[Cyc]

Discussion points:
-- What makes a poll unofficial?
If it is marked informational in the Title and/or the narrative.
-- Are leaders bound by another leader's poll?
Not if the other Leader did not follow protocol and is out of his jurisdiction.
-- If a poll does not meet set criteria, is it valid? (see PSC)
No, sir.
-- If a poll does not meet suggested criteria, is it valid? (see PSC)
Yes, sir.

 

[ravensfire]

Ahh, the amendment process. Always such a fun thing to consider!

I look at the Constitution as our foundation, our framework, if you will. It remains steady, moving slowly in the breeze. It provides the core rules, the basic stuff that everything else builds on. Here, we put our most important rules, the ones that make us who we are. Changing it isn't supposed to be easy.

The DG V standards live up to that. It takes a fair number of people to be interested in the change, and support the change, to make that happen.

The Code of Laws is another story. It provides the details to flesh out the vague areas of the Constitution. It should be easier to change, to adapt. The DG V standards do accomplish that, but we could simplify things a bit. Drop the census (37%?!?!) and require more yeah than nay votes.

-- Ravensfire

 

[blackheart]

Why not repost the darn Polling 101 and learn us this magic trade, in place of keeping it as a classified mocking tool for garnering undeserved political power and persecuting hapless pollers not introduced to this secret lore of yours. When all of us have learnt this higher art, it will be democratized, and would be hard to use as a sophist tool of supressing debaters someone does not agree with. Also pin down the Will of the people when we are at it. All DG experience brought into this game should be documented and polled into the legislation.

Sarcasm doesn't help.

Nobody is persecuting anybody, it may seem like it, especially if you post horrible polls that are complicated or out of touch with expected options (like simple and unbiased yes/no/abstain).