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Official Govt. Poll. Make your PICK!

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Multi-site Demo Game: High Council' started by Goonie, Feb 11, 2003.

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Which Proposal do you like best?

  1. Goonie's Suggestion

    5 vote(s)
    26.3%
  2. Gingerbread Man's Suggestion

    3 vote(s)
    15.8%
  3. Donsig's Suggestion

    6 vote(s)
    31.6%
  4. Octavian's Suggestion

    5 vote(s)
    26.3%
  1. Goonie

    Goonie Lonely End of the Rink

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    Here is the final poll on Government. Here are all the submisons. Please do not post until I have posted everyones suggested.

    This is Goonies SECOND PROPOSAL. NOT THE ONE WITH MP's And CONSITUENCIES. This is only to clear up confusion.
     
  2. Goonie

    Goonie Lonely End of the Rink

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    Please read this for the proposal it is with an open mind. In this game, we are not playing with AI, but we are playing with humans. Because of this we cannot have such an interieurly focused government. This proposal divides the government into three main divisions, all united to form our government. Our first divisons is the foreign office.

    NOTE!!! In this proposal we will have turn chats. The reason being, what if we are attacked by another team? We dont want the prez to be the only one to play! We want all Departments there to make informed decisions!

    All Policy and Law changes are voted on by citizens.

    Playing the save is against the Law.
    All spies will be banned upon being proved guilty.
    Elections every 45 turns.

    Foreign Department

    Foreign Minister
    Head of the Foreign department.
    Designs trades.
    Elected.
    Post turn chat instructions.
    Gives orders to the Ambassadors.
    Holds Foreign affairs meetings(Open to the public)

    Ambassadors
    Each other team has one ambassador.(No ambassadors until we have made contact in the game.)
    Elected.
    Post turn chat instructions.
    Makes contact with other teams.
    Writes deals to make to other teams.
    Negotiates terms with teams.
    Represents CFC.

    Interieur Department

    Interieur Minister
    Like Fanatikas Domestic Minister.
    Elected.
    Post turn chats instructions.
    Head of the govenors.
    Holds meetings with the Govenors.
    Deals with all domestic and science affairs.

    Govenors
    Same as a Fanatikan govenor.
    In charge or one province.
    Post Build queues and Micromanagement.

    Judicial Department

    Prosecution
    Prosecutes people spying on us.
    Prosecutes CFC spying.

    Defender
    Defends any accused.

    Military Department

    Defence Minister
    Wages War.
    Elected.
    Draws up Military Plans.

    Head of State
    DP.

     
  3. Goonie

    Goonie Lonely End of the Rink

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    We use the existing Constitution of Fanatika for the structure of government, with the possibility of consolidation of elected positions (to be later determined), and the addition of ambassadors.

    Under this proposal, we would NOT use the CoL and CoS.
     
  4. Goonie

    Goonie Lonely End of the Rink

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    This consitution is the standard constitution, with certain departments combined to deal with fewer players. Stuff in bold are my modifications.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The Constitution
    We, the people of xxxx, in order to create an atmosphere of friendship and cooperation, establish this Constitution of our beloved country. We uphold the beliefs that each citizen must have a voice in the government and ruling of our country, that government itself is a construct of and servant to the people, that rules, regulations, and laws should be established to facilitate the active participation of the people and to make possible the dreams and desires of the Fanatiks.

    All Civfanatics Forum users who register in the Citizen Registry are citizens of xxxx. Citizens have the right to assemble, the right to free movement, the right to free speech, the right to a fair trial, the right to representation, the right to demand satisfaction and the right to vote.

    Governing rules shall consist of the Articles of the Constitution (removed CoL and CoS)
    The government will consist of the Executive Branch, Legislative Branch and Judicial Branch.

    The Executive Branch is headed by the President, who shall be the designated player of the game, and shall include a council of leaders, each of whom heads a department that is responsible for one major facet of the country, one representative from the Judicial branch, and th Judge. The departments are Interior (Science, Domstic, Culture), Foreign (Foreign and Trade) and Military. Each of these departments will be generally responsible for the items found under the respective Advisor in the Civilization III game and esoteric aspects that fall under their department name.

    The Legislative Branch will be formed of two houses. The Senate will be formed of the Provincial Governors, each of whom are responsible for the care, management and use of the cities and lands of a province in addition to legislative responsibilities. The Congress will be formed of the entirety of the citizenry.

    The Judicial Branch will be formed of one leader, the Judge (think of a better name!) who is tasked with upholding the laws. Any prosecuted citizen may elect a 'defender of rights'.

    All offices will be filled via election with terms lasting one calendar month.

    No person shall hold multiple positions of leadership (President, Department Leader, Judiciary, Provincial Governor) simultaneously, unless there is an unfilled governor position.

    The average of the number of votes cast in each of the most recent contested elections shall constitute an active census of citizens. The highest vote total of these elections shall constitute a full census (the Congress). A majority of the Congress shall be required to amend the Constitution. A 2/3 majority of the Senate shall be required to ratify said amendment.

    In an election, or whenever a poll gives more than three (3) options (excluding 'abstain'), the winner must hold more than 50% of the total number of votes. If the winner doesn't hold more than 50% of the votes, a runoff poll is created, with the top two options/candidate kept, and the rest discarded. The winner of a runoff poll is the FINAL winner.

    Elected officials must plan and act according to the will of the people.

    Game actions will be played out during a public turn chat.
    The constitution, laws and standards of country xxxx can never be contrary to the rules and regulations of the Civfanatics forums. Moderators may veto any such constitutional amendments, laws or standards.
     
  5. Goonie

    Goonie Lonely End of the Rink

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    My proposal is to use a revamped Fanatikan constitution. The Fanatikan constitution is a good one all in all and it is not designed to be used only by warmongers. It was used in Phoenatica which was generally a peaceful nation.

    The constitution does have flaws though and should be revamped to make it fit the PBEM game play style. I have looked over each article of the constitution and propose these changes to use as the basis of our government. Note that we would not use the Fanatikan CoL or CoS! Here is my proposed constitution. Text in italics are notes and not part of the constitution.

    Article A: All Civfanatics Forum users who register in the Citizen Registry are citizens of insert our counrtry name here subject to the approval of the Judiciary. Citizens have the right to assemble, the right to free movement, the right to free speech, the right to a fair trial, the right to representation, the right to demand satisfaction and the right to vote.

    Article B: Governing rules shall consist of the Articles of the Constitution, the Code of Laws and the Code of Standards. No laws shall be passed that conflict with an article and no standards shall be used that conflict with a law or an article.

    We do not need a CoL or CoS to start. It is a good idea to leave this article in place as it will allow us to make rules and standards if we find we need some.

    Article C: The government will consist of the Executive Branch, Legislative Branch and Judicial Branch.

    Article D: The Executive Branch is headed by the President, who shall be the designated player of the game, and shall include a council of leaders, each of whom heads a department that is responsible for one major facet of the country. These departments are Domestic, Foreign, Military, Science, Culture and Trade. Each of these departments will be generally responsible for the items found under the respective Advisor in the Civilization III game and esoteric aspects that fall under their department name. Provincial Governors shall be responsible for the care, management and use of the cities and lands of a province. Ambassadors shall be responsible for conducting our relations with a foreign power.

    I would do away with deputies, including the vice president. This article would not prevent us from subordinating one department to another. I would organize the government in this way: make the domestic and foreign departments into mega-deprtments. These two ministers would be the ones who report directly to the president. The science and military leaders and governors would report to the domestic leader. The culture and trade leaders and our ambassadors would report to the foreign minister. This way all turn instructions would be given by only two people making things much easier. Since we only play one turn at a time we only need instructions for one turn. We can institute a chain of command in each of our mega-departments.

    Article E: The Legislative Branch shall consist of the Congress. The Congress will be formed of the entirety of the citizenry.

    Article F: The Judicial Branch will be formed of three leaders, one who is tasked with upholding the laws (Judge Advocate), one who is tasked with defending the citizenry (Public Defender) and headed by the Chief Justice.

    The JA would be our prosecutor of spies. The Judiciary can be in charge of accepting new citizens or rejecting them.

    Article G: All offices will be filled via election with terms lasting according to a fixed schedule based on game years.

    We can divide the game into 10 equal terms of 45 turns each and place elections accordingly.

    Article H: Game Play Restriction
    It is unlawful to play through actions, move troops, make deals or take any other action that would change the state of the playing game from that of the saved game.
    Exception: The structure of peace renegotiation treaties requires an action to be taken to view the bargaining possibilities. Specifically, once the deal is broached it must result in a new deal or a declaration of war. Once the bargaining possibilities have been noted the altered game must be immediately closed without saving. Further activity in the altered game is not allowed.

    Note the original article H is the one that says a player can hold only one leadership position. I think we can do away with that one. We do need the game play restriction though!

    Article I: The average of the number of votes cast in each of the most recent contested elections shall constitute an active census of citizens. The highest vote total of these elections shall constitute a full census (the Congress). A majority of the Congress shall be required to amend the Constitution.

    Quorums are done away with.

    Article J: Elected officials must plan and act according to the will of the people.

    Article K: The constitution, laws and standards of Fanatika can never be contrary to the rules and regulations of the Civfanatics forums. Moderators may veto any such constitutional amendments, laws or standards.

    The original article K stipulated that we have public turn chats. That should be done away with. Since we only play one turn a report from the president about actions taken should be enough. Trying to schedule turn chats would slow the game. The President must be able to carry out the instructions and play the turn quickly so it can be sent off to the next team.

    Using this constitution gives us flexibility to organize things the way we see fit. If we can adopt this constitution then we'd need to set our terms and get our first election underway.

    We also have to figure out how department leaders are going to get access to the save.
     
  6. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

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    Sorry Goonie, but I think we should go for simplicity here. The demogame already has a constitution in place. We just need to take the important stuff, and add to it. (somethings will go, like the turn chats, since it's 1 turn, then ship it off to the next civ site).
     
  7. Goonie

    Goonie Lonely End of the Rink

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    CT as I said Fanatika's Government will put us at a disadvantage. We need my proposal to take advantage of its EXCELLENT foreign affairs office. My proposal will alow us to build good relationships with other nations.

    Secondly, why take away TC? What if we are attacked and dont find out until the DP opens it to play? A turn chat will allow for a more democratic Nation.
     
  8. Veera Anlai

    Veera Anlai Southern Belle

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    And just where is the Abstain option, eh? I don't like any of these suggestions particularly well...
     
  9. Burebista

    Burebista Chieftain

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    It seems to me that all proposals have more in common than differences. If we update the Fanatikan constitution to deal with a initially small number of players, with time constraints, eliminate deputies and add ambassadors, I think we get the same thing as in Goonie's proposal. Just starting from the other direction.
    Can somebody point the differences between these proposals, or what they think are the disatvantages of other proposals?. It will make things clearer as what to vote.

    I see no reference to Legislative branch in Goonie's proposal. I think citizens should still vote on law changes (it is not constrained by turn times).
    It should not matter who initiated the plan, as long as they are quite similar (for me).
    In order to have a constitution, maybe it's easier to start with the existing one and do the changes. Otherwise I like Goonie's reduced government.
     
  10. Veera Anlai

    Veera Anlai Southern Belle

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    For now, I'll have to go with Octavian's plan though. I prefer an option that allows us to make changes as we need them. We really have no idea what we're getting into at this time, and the flexibility offered by a minimalist set of laws could prove crucial to our success.
    In addition, I believe any set of laws we institute must be very easy to amend laws. In the current demogame, making an amendment is as difficult as making a one-handed man nail himself to a cross.
     
  11. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    The big difference between Goonie's proposal and mine is that Goonie's lacks a constitution. There is no framework of rules around which to build a government. Please note that my proposal really has two parts. There is the actual constitution and then suggestions as to how to set up the government under that constitution. Since the constitution itself is designed to be flexible the particular way we choose to set up the government is not set in stone. It can be changed as we find the need to do so. I actually made my suggestions using many ideas that Goonie and the others originally came up with. They are good ideas and I merely surrounded them with the counsitutional framework. Goonie is quite correct in saying that we need a good foreign affairs office and I think my proposal allows us to have one.

    As for the turn chats I would like to point out that leaving them out of the constitution does not mean we cannot have them during emergencies or even on a regular basis. We just will not be constitutionally required to have them. We can always make a law specifiying when (if ever) we have to have a turn chat.
     
  12. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    The trouble with Octavian's plan is that it requires us to have turn chats, requires us to have terms that last one calender month (which will last around 25 turns if we manage to get a turn around rate of 30 hours), does not include the game play restriction, and uses the same difficult law changing mechanisms as in Fanatika!
     
  13. Burebista

    Burebista Chieftain

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    Donsig, from your description I like your proposal.
    I think more or less everybody mean the same thing. We have a constitution which is flexible in the beginning as we encounter new situations and a reduced government that can fit anyone's proposal in the end.
     
  14. Goonie

    Goonie Lonely End of the Rink

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    "I see no reference to Legislative branch in Goonie's proposal. I think citizens should still vote on law changes (it is not constrained by turn times)."

    I specificly said that all law changes and policy must be voted on by citizens.
     
  15. Goonie

    Goonie Lonely End of the Rink

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    It's funny that the proposal with nothing clear and set in stone is winning. It is also funny that the proposal with the least amount of thought put into it is winning. Thats Democracy for ya!

    No offence OCT. I still like you alot! :D
     
  16. Burebista

    Burebista Chieftain

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    I noticed that. I was thinking about the Congress, which I do not know if we need it or not, but we should not exclude it apriori.
    I went with donsig's proposal in the end, which does not exclude your government structure.
     
  17. Zarn

    Zarn Le Républicain Catholique

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    I'm with donsig on this one. He seems to have it right.
     
  18. Octavian X

    Octavian X is not a pipe.

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    Perhaps the intent of my simple proposal was misunderstood. I wanted to use the Constitution of Fanatika as a framework so we could just get this thing off the ground. The other ideas are fascinating, and all have their merits. For example, consider this is a PBEM, I am interested in not using TC's.

    My goal was to have this thing evolve into something more complex, thus the simplicity of my suggestion
     
  19. Gingerbread Man

    Gingerbread Man Dark Magus

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    If I wasn't going to vote for me, i'd vote for Donsig. We dont need turn chats with this.

    EDIT - the reason why no official polls have abstain yet is because we have no constitution yet, so we have no quorum law, making abstain useless. I dont want quorum either.
     
  20. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

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    Goonie - about the turn chats. Why have a turn chat if we're only playing 1 turn at a time? There might be a sticky thread of current instructions for the term (yes, I think it would go that slow) where you simply edit your post.
     

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