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[GS] Ok so what do Rock Bands actually do?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by tiamats4esgares, Feb 20, 2019.

  1. Invigilator

    Invigilator Chieftain

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    Is there any way to kill a rock band? Or is the only option to declare war and then kick it back to the enemy's city?
     
  2. lordhaw

    lordhaw Chieftain

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  3. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

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    You can only boot it back to the nearest enemy city with a military unit (if you are at war).
     
  4. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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  5. avguy2

    avguy2 Chieftain

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    I feel stupid. Went through this thread and I'm still wondering: What do the numbers mean for victory? How much better is a rock band that gets me 1000 points vs. 250? I have no idea what it means when a concert gets me +1.000 tourism in Japan. It's not 1000 tourists, since I see I only need 200 more to win.

    The problem may very well be that I don't understand much about the cv in general (aside the fact I need to generate tourism to attract other civs). But I feel the game does a bad job explaining the cv.
    It's throwing a lot of numbers at me but there seems no way of telling what they do. So the tourism lense is showing how many foreign(?) tourists are visiting my cities and stuff (right?). That means the total of what I can see in the circles should be the number of foreign tourists (I can see that number in the cv screen)? What needs to happen to get them there (resort/ museum/ wonder etc.)? Is there a certain amount of tourism points I have to generate per turn in a location? Do I have to reach a certain lifetime value? And how do the rock bands tie into this?
     
  6. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Read through page 1, I explain it there.
     
  7. avguy2

    avguy2 Chieftain

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    Yeah, not sure I understand correctly. So does that mean lifetime tourism doesn't matter for anything?
    Also, how do I figure out how much tourism points I need to create 1 foreign tourist with another civ? You're using some formula there but I don't know where you are getting the numbers.

    People have been saying with rock bands you should target the leading civ. But if I'm reading you right and tourism points create foreign tourists in every civ each turn it shouldn't matter. Because as long as I'm attracting people why care where they're from. What am I missing?

     
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  8. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    If we look at the picture below I am Wilfred and have 65 foreign tourism and need 116 to win.
    If you look below Trajan’s name, the number 115 is his domestic tourism, he is the civ with the highest domestic tourism and I need more foreign tourism than any civs domestic tourism which is where the 116 comes from.
    Trajans 115 is the total culture Trajan has made all game / 100.
    The foreign tourists I have (65) is the total of each suitcase number sgainst each civ, in this case 11 of my 65 foreign tourists come from Trajan. Every turn I take the tourism showing on my main playing screen and apply the modifiers in the white box which then gives the tourism number 306 (current) which is added to the lifetime tourism for that civ.
    18438/1600 = 11 foreign tourists I get from Trajan. The 1600 comes from an in game parameter of 200 * number of civ’s playing (8).
    Help? What are you confused over?
    upload_2019-3-12_7-33-23.png
     
  9. avguy2

    avguy2 Chieftain

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    Oh ok, thanks for the clarification! I get it now. One questions remains though:

    Is it correct that it shouldn't make much of a difference where I send my rock bands to?
     
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  10. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Incorrect.
    If we take the example above I need 116 foreign tourists to win.
    This is because Trajan has 115 domestic tourists.
    Every foreign tourist I get from Trajan reduces his domestic tourists by 1.
    So if I play a concert at another civ and get 3 foreign tourists from them I am now 68/116
    But if I played that same concert at a Trajan city and got 3 foreign tourists I am now 68/113.
    Basically twice as powerful.

    Below is a picture from when I used pure rock bands to win a CV (from page 4 of this thread)
    Montezuma had the highest domestic tourist when I started amd I played all my concerts in his lands.
    You can see this because I got 74 foreign tourists from him. (The suitcase)
    This also dropped his domestic tourists to 54 (it was 89 when I started).. I should really have changed target civ onece he was not the highest.

    upload_2019-3-12_9-45-28.png
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  11. Karmah

    Karmah King Supporter

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    And for the sake of ultimate confirmation, 200 is an absolute and hard-coded value right?
     
  12. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    This is the parameter in the globalparams file that is currently set to 200. For vanilla civ VI it was set to 150 but changed to 200 with Rise and fall.
    Notice the name of the parameter is saying MOVE tourist (domestic to foreign)
    It is there but can be changed
    Change it to 2 and in a turn or 2 you will win.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
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  13. avguy2

    avguy2 Chieftain

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    This is a good hint! Because the leading civ isn't necessarily the one with the most domestic tourists so it makes sense to look out for that one.
     
  14. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    We are often humbled by assumptions, apologies. Yes I mean the civ it’s the highest domestic tourists.
     
  15. Nerevatar

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    So about those BaseProbability values.. If one were to rebalance rock bands to be less binary (either you loose the unit or the unit gets super OP) it would have to be done in stages:
    1. Lower the values of AlbumSales and TourismBomb, where AlbumSales seems like the most snowballing one.
    2. Adjust the BaseProbability. But how? I read through the thread but I cant make sense of how to interpret the values in xml. Is there a way to calculate the chance of receiving a given result given a BaseProbability? Looking at the research of @ggmoyang and @DanQuayle makes it seem like that part is figured out so it may just be me not getting the point :crazyeye:


    For easy references:
    <Unit_RockbandResults_XP2>
    <!--BaseProbability needs to be within 3 and 18. Must be specified from highest BaseProbability to lowest-->
    <Row ResultType="RESULT_LEGENDS_OF_ROCK" AlbumSales="200" TourismBomb="200" ExtraPromotion="true" GainsLevel="true" BaseProbability="17" PerformanceStars="6"/>
    <Row ResultType="RESULT_HEADLINERS" AlbumSales="150" TourismBomb="0" ExtraPromotion="true" GainsLevel="true" BaseProbability="15" PerformanceStars="5"/>
    <Row ResultType="RESULT_RISING_STARS" AlbumSales="100" TourismBomb="150" BaseProbability="13" PerformanceStars="4"/>
    <Row ResultType="RESULT_OPENING_ACT" AlbumSales="50" TourismBomb="-25" BaseProbability="11" PerformanceStars="3"/>
    <Row ResultType="RESULT_CREATIVE_DIFFERENCES" Dies="true" AlbumSales="0" TourismBomb="100" BaseProbability="9" PerformanceStars="2"/>
    <Row ResultType="RESULT_AGING_ROCKERS" Dies="true" AlbumSales="0" TourismBomb="-25" BaseProbability="7" PerformanceStars="1"/>
    </Unit_RockbandResults_XP2>
     
  16. bonafide11

    bonafide11 Worker

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    I appreciate Victoria and other people here trying to decode what all of the tourism values mean, but it is still ridiculously convoluted the way the developers designed it in the game. I don't go for culture victory much, but when I do, I just find it a bit laughable how they expect the average gamer to be able to figure out what any of this stuff means. I read the forums consistently and research all of this stuff and I still struggle to decode it all.

    Also, does someone on here explain what "Albums Sold" means? I haven't figured that one out yet and didn't see that explained, but I'm sure I just missed it.
     
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  17. Elhoim

    Elhoim Iron Tower Studio Dev

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    Yeah, the cultural victory screen should have show the final value of 200*numberofcivs, plus explained the domestic formula. So you know exactly how much you need and how to properly defend yourself.

    I still can't believe they didn't add the benefits of tourism we had in Civ V....
     
  18. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    If I understand your question #2 correctly (how to adjust BaseProbability, the answer seems fairly straight-forward to me: If you want less chance for 1 star or 2 star performance (band dies), you need to lower BaseProbability for these (but number must be 3 or higher).

    As far as I understand, the system works like this:
    • When band performs, a random number is determined by rolling 3d6 (i.e. picking 3 random numbers between 1 and 6) - 2 + effective level of Rock Band (including promotions). So for instance, if your level 2 rock band with album cover promotion performs on a wonder (+2 effective level), the outcome of the roll might be 2, 3 and 5. This gives the sum 2 + 3 + 5 - 2 + 2 (from level of band) + 2 (from promotion) = 12.
    • Because 11 <= number < 13, the performance will be a 3 star performance. You need to get 13 or 14 for a 4 star performace, 15 or 16 for a 5 star performance, etc.
    Not sure if these numbers are accurate (doing the math does seems to reproduce the correct chances for retirement +/- some roundings, if I'm not mistaken). Either way, the point is, if you want a bad outcome to be less likely, you need to lower the number and interval, because that will increase the chance that the sum of your roll + modifiers gets above the threshold. Increasing the BaseProbability for Aging Rockers from 7 to 6, for instance, will be the same as giving each band an effective level to avoid this outcome.

    On the other hand, if you expand the interval in the other end by lowering Headlines limit from 15 to 14, you'll make a 5 star performance more likely (but a 4 star performance less likely, unless you shift all the other limits similarly).


    Iinm. the "Albums Sold" is a flat bonus to the tourism earned that stacks over time. So if a performance is base 1000 Tourism, but the band has sold 300 albums prior, the performance will give 1300 tourism (+/- possible modifiers from performance levels). If the band earns additional album sales, say 100 more, these will count in any future performances, so next one will be 1400 base tourism, etc.
     
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  19. Nerevatar

    Nerevatar Chieftain

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    @kaspergm Thanks a lot for the reply. So the 3d6 theory has been proven (or at least accepted)? I was getting some conflicting vibes on that part.

    This part is a very neat way of putting it.
    And for the overall structure:
    The BaseProbability can then be seen as intervals, with the floor being inclusive and the ceiling being exclusive.

    The formula (3d6 roll - 2) + effective level + promotion count, will then produce a number which will fit somewhere into the given intervals:

    0-8 : RESULT_AGING_ROCKERS - dies, low tourism
    9-10 : RESULT_CREATIVE_DIFFERENCES - dies, high tourism
    11-12: RESULT_OPENING_ACT - lives, low tourism, more future tourism
    13-14: RESULT_RISING_STARS - lives, high tourism, more future tourism x2
    15-16: RESULT_HEADLINERS - lives, low-ish tourism, more future tourism x3, promotion + level up
    17- inf: RESULT_LEGENDS_OF_ROCK - lives, super high tourism, more future tourism x4, promotion + level up

    Breaking down on the math for a first level Rock Band (not playing at a venue which it's promotion affect) it means that the probabilities goes like the following (3d6 probability distribution: http://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/tech_reports/3_dice_rolls.htm#.XI-i_iJKiUk)
    • Chance of dying is 50%
    • Chance of living, but no promotion is ~41%
    • Chance of living and promotion is ~9%

    You will then be stucked in this stage until you either die or hit the lucky 9% which will then shift everything in your favor.

    If all intervals were shifted one down, we would get:
    0-7 : RESULT_AGING_ROCKERS - dies, low tourism
    8-9 : RESULT_CREATIVE_DIFFERENCES - dies, high tourism
    10-11: RESULT_OPENING_ACT - lives, low tourism, more future tourism
    12-13: RESULT_RISING_STARS - lives, high tourism, more future tourism x2
    14-15: RESULT_HEADLINERS - lives, low-ish tourism, more future tourism x3, promotion + level up
    16 - inf: RESULT_LEGENDS_OF_ROCK - lives, super high tourism, more future tourism x4, promotion + level up
    • Chance of dying is ~37%
    • Chance of living, but no promotion is ~46%
    • Chance of living and promotion is ~16%

    Shifting another one down would bring us to:
    • Chance of dying is ~26%
    • Chance of living, but no promotion is ~48%
    • Chance of living and promotion is ~26%
    This seems like some more reasonable numbers. But what if we consider the bonus levels from some promotions?

    Basing of on the the two times shifting, and the best case scenario where you start with a +2 level adjustment, a newly recruited Rock Band will have the following probabilities:
    • Chance of dying is ~9%
    • Chance of living, but no promotion is ~41%
    • Chance of living and promotion is ~50%
    Maybe too much? But is the problem then with promotions being horrible unbalanced with each other or with shifting the intervals too much?

    After deciding on the above, then it is just a matter of balancing the tourism values, the album values (future tourism), and possibly cost(?) to match the new probabilities and power level of Rock Bands.

    Any thoughts on the percentages? Did I mess something up with the math and/or misunderstand the formula/BaseProbability?
     
  20. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    NO
    venue + (venue*TouristBomb%) + (venue*album Sales%) = tourism produced

    so that means if you play at a wonder (venue = 1000) with 0 album sales and get a creative differences (200% tourist bomb) you will get 2000 tourism.

    But the same situation but with 500 album sales will give you 7000 tourism.... album sales make a HUGE difference.
    Turn that up to 11....
     
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