OK this kinda pisses me off ( history of Korea)

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just now on another forum I argued with a user who said Korea was insignificant as Aztec and Mayans during Joseon Dynasty and his reason- imjin war and how Joseon had to be rescused by Ming and even said that if Hideyoshi hasn't died Korea would be like Aztec under Japan- be totally assimilated into Japan.
I am sorry but WHAT?
Adirmal Yi laughs at your ignrance!
 
"As insignificant as the Aztecs and Mayans" is already a pretty loaded descriptor. These were sophisticated urban civilisations,

The implication that these peoples were "totally assimilated" by the Spanish is pretty dubious, not simply because Mexican culture remains distinct from Spanish culture in ways which both self-evidently and more subtly owe something to indigenous culture, but because... there are still native Mayan- and Nahuatl-speakers living in Mexico? Millions of them?
 
Usually only China and Japan are presented as important far-east civs. I am not sure what Korea has done differently, but given they survived next door to China for millenia, they should have been organized enough; Japan was lucky to have been an island and only became a major power in the 19th century.
That said, maybe Korea isn't the most deserving of being discussed more in the west; no one seems to care about the Khmer/Siam either, despite impressive monuments.
 
"As insignificant as the Aztecs and Mayans" is already a pretty loaded descriptor. These were sophisticated urban civilisations,

The implication that these peoples were "totally assimilated" by the Spanish is pretty dubious, not simply because Mexican culture remains distinct from Spanish culture in ways which both self-evidently and more subtly owe something to indigenous culture, but because... there are still native Mayan- and Nahuatl-speakers living in Mexico? Millions of them?

I read the op as questioning the idea that Korea had been as insignificant (as in lacking power) as the contemporaneous Maya and Aztec who were being conquered by the spanish crown.
But you can point out that the Maya were not conquered by the european invaders at the time, and put up a two-century log resistance. The collapse of the Aztec Empire however (as a polity) was quick and total.
 
Kupe Navigator, please have a look into your world atlas. You will note, that there is a South Korea and a North Korea, but currently no Korea at all. So at present the Korea of the past is to handle like other gone civilizations. May be there will come a time with a resurrection of Korea, but at present this is not the case.
 
Kupe Navigator, please have a look into your world atlas. You will note, that there is a South Korea and a North Korea, but currently no Korea at all. So at present the Korea of the past is to handle like other gone civilizations. May be there will come a time with a resurrection of Korea, but at present this is not the case.


The fact that korea is politically split really should have no bearing on the existence of a korean "civilization". It exists.
 
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"As insignificant as the Aztecs and Mayans" is already a pretty loaded descriptor. These were sophisticated urban civilisations,

The implication that these peoples were "totally assimilated" by the Spanish is pretty dubious, not simply because Mexican culture remains distinct from Spanish culture in ways which both self-evidently and more subtly owe something to indigenous culture, but because... there are still native Mayan- and Nahuatl-speakers living in Mexico? Millions of them?

An interesting question may be - is your claim at the first paragraph necessarily derived from the claim at the second one?


I mean, can we tell if the situation described by you, in Mexico today, has to do with how urban and sophisticated these pre-Columbian cultures were?
Can't it just be the mere existence of these populations and their traditions?

But I may be well off the topic right now...
 
I mean, can we tell if the situation described by you, in Mexico today, has to do with how urban and sophisticated these pre-Columbian cultures were?
Can't it just be the mere existence of these populations and their traditions?
At the most general level, no; there are after all extant indigenous groups that were not complex urban societies. But in the case of the Nahuatl- specifically, I think there is very much a connection between there persistence to the present day and the sorts of dense populations which are associated with pre-Columbian society of the Mexican highlands. I think that it is worth taking into account that in rural Mexico indigenous languages remained prevalent and in many areas predominant until the introduction of universal Spanish-language education in the twentieth century.

Mayan-speakers is somewhat more complex due to the fact that Mayan is a much broader group of languages spoken over a larger area, but I think something broadly similar holds true for at least the major languages spoken in Yucatan and Guatemala.
 
Korea was insignificant as Aztec and Mayans
The statement starts wrong here. There is no such thing as insignificant population.
All humans are important, even that one as the civilization was vanished.

And Korea is relevant since still free from Japanese/Chinese emperialism. Despite being two countries because of ideologies of XX century. They still have their own language with their own alphabet. North Korea have the most strong militar power and South Korea the stronger economy, Korea is not just important in the past, but also in the present.
 
Relevance is connected to the context of time and place. In 700 BCE the Mayans were very relevant to Central America. By 1500, not so much. The Aztecs (and Incas) can be seen similarly. Each of those civs had their day (hundreds of years in fact) and contributions. Korea was surrounded by both China and Japan and its relevance shadowed by them. Today its only relevance is that Kim likes to wave his nukes around for attention. For the most part China outshines all the rest in prolonged relevance if not current importance. Greece, Egypt and Italy limp along on the glory days of their past with little to offer since. Well, Italy did come through during the Renaissance. Sumer, once the top dog of relevance, is just dust in the wind now.
 
I read the op as questioning the idea that Korea had been as insignificant (as in lacking power) as the contemporaneous Maya and Aztec who were being conquered by the spanish crown.
But you can point out that the Maya were not conquered by the european invaders at the time, and put up a two-century log resistance. The collapse of the Aztec Empire however (as a polity) was quick and total.
Excellent points. One factor being overlooked here is the bio war brought to the Western Hemisphere by Spanish English French and European colonial nations like Portugal and the Netherlands. Without the devastation wreaked on the indigenous peoples by smallpox, measles and other infectious diseases that didn't exist in half the world, it's doubtful the Europeans could have done more than establish more than foot holds in the hemisphere.

As far as Civ goes,I've always wished players could create their own civilizations.
 
Excellent points. One factor being overlooked here is the bio war brought to the Western Hemisphere by Spanish English French and European colonial nations like Portugal and the Netherlands. Without the devastation wreaked on the indigenous peoples by smallpox, measles and other infectious diseases that didn't exist in half the world, it's doubtful the Europeans could have done more than establish more than foot holds in the hemisphere.

As far as Civ goes,I've always wished players could create their own civilizations.

Europeans would eventually conquer the whole of the Americas. Just like they conquered the whole of Africa, but it took centuries. The technology difference was simply too big. And much of the continent was very sparsely populated, the existing polities simply could not put up a successful defense. The caribbean islands were easy conquests, brasil and the rio de la plata were almost free for the takers, the east coast of the US was also settled without much by the way of military backing. In north america it seems to me that british crown restricted more than aided the expansionist activities of the settlers.

The Aztecs and the Inca could imo have resisted colonization. Their fall was a product of a combination of daring and lucky breaks for the spanish conquerors. Civil wars and rebellious subjects, leaders who defied orders from the crown... I do think one could write fictional alternative histories where the inca and aztec lasted until the big wave of imperialism of the 19th century.

Disease did had importance but I dare not even guess how much. It's notorious in Africa. 18th century pushes for control of the interior of austral Africa perished with the garrisons send there dying en masse from diseases. America was far more attractive because it lacked that devastation. But I do wonder what would have happened if gold had been found in 18th century Angola instead of Brasil. My guess is that Angola would have been colonized. Foreigners would have rushed in, built whatever roads, cities and support structures they needed, and tamed nature. It was the silver of Potosi and Mexico and the gold of Minas Gerais that hastened the colonization of spanish and portuguese america. The american west also drew in many more settlers after the major finds of silver and gold. Disease, distance, lack of infrasctruture, all those can make a territory unattractive - until an opposite force weights on the other side!
 
Europeans would eventually conquer the whole of the Americas. Just like they conquered the whole of Africa, but it took centuries. The technology difference was simply too big. And much of the continent was very sparsely populated, the existing polities simply could not put up a successful defense. The caribbean islands were easy conquests, brasil and the rio de la plata were almost free for the takers, the east coast of the US was also settled without much by the way of military backing. In north america it seems to me that british crown restricted more than aided the expansionist activities of the settlers.

The Aztecs and the Inca could imo have resisted colonization. Their fall was a product of a combination of daring and lucky breaks for the spanish conquerors. Civil wars and rebellious subjects, leaders who defied orders from the crown... I do think one could write fictional alternative histories where the inca and aztec lasted until the big wave of imperialism of the 19th century.

Disease did had importance but I dare not even guess how much. It's notorious in Africa. 18th century pushes for control of the interior of austral Africa perished with the garrisons send there dying en masse from diseases. America was far more attractive because it lacked that devastation. But I do wonder what would have happened if gold had been found in 18th century Angola instead of Brasil. My guess is that Angola would have been colonized. Foreigners would have rushed in, built whatever roads, cities and support structures they needed, and tamed nature. It was the silver of Potosi and Mexico and the gold of Minas Gerais that hastened the colonization of spanish and portuguese america. The american west also drew in many more settlers after the major finds of silver and gold. Disease, distance, lack of infrasctruture, all those can make a territory unattractive - until an opposite force weights on the other side!

By the 15th century, Sub-Saharan Africa wasn't less sparsely populated than the Americas. The reason why the Americans could be colonized first is mostly a matter of disease. Smallpox devastated American natives whereas in Africa, malaria was devastating settlers. That's the major reason why Portuguese colonization of Africa was first only limited to remote outposts, many of them being located on islands (Cape Verde, Gorée, São Tomé, Principe, Zanzibar, Socotra). Portuguese colonists had much less difficulties to penetrate Brazil inland. Now it's also true Africans mastered iron smelting which wasn't the case of American natives, but no matter what it's certainly not because of a lack of interest that Africa wasn't colonized in-depth before the 19th century.

Also we cannot compare the relatively limited technological advantage of Europe at the 15th century to what it has become at the 19th century, after 4 centuries of control of global trade and the industrial revolution. What really gave an edge to Europeans was primarily the mastery of high seas navigation.
 
Gunboat diplomacy opened up port cities all over the world and secured newly created ones.
 
By the 15th century, Sub-Saharan Africa wasn't less sparsely populated than the Americas. The reason why the Americans could be colonized first is mostly a matter of disease. Smallpox devastated American natives whereas in Africa, malaria was devastating settlers. That's the major reason why Portuguese colonization of Africa was first only limited to remote outposts, many of them being located on islands (Cape Verde, Gorée, São Tomé, Principe, Zanzibar, Socotra). Portuguese colonists had much less difficulties to penetrate Brazil inland. Now it's also true Africans mastered iron smelting which wasn't the case of American natives, but no matter what it's certainly not because of a lack of interest that Africa wasn't colonized in-depth before the 19th century.

Also we cannot compare the relatively limited technological advantage of Europe at the 15th century to what it has become at the 19th century, after 4 centuries of control of global trade and the industrial revolution. What really gave an edge to Europeans was primarily the mastery of high seas navigation.

Technologically, european kingdoms could conquer and hold territory in Africa's interior in the 18th century. I mentioned the devastation done by diseases because there are records of this occupation of the interior being done, and the costs of it. The solution was obvious though, in an era before modern nationalism and racism: just africanize the effort. Empires then had no trouble with recruiting soldiers and even commanders in their colonies. Intra-empire mobility afterwards was an issue, but only became politicaly relevant towards the 19th century: dissatisfaction with limited prospects of advancemente leading to rebellion and independence in the americas.

The case I know of best is the portuguese effort to hold territory in the interior of Angola, as the state of Congo was collapsing. African mercenaries played a role, african nobles were recruited, and even though most european soldiers sent there died of disease, some survived. Enough, so long as mor e people kept being send. It wasn't that worse than Brazil. The war to expel the dutch from Brasil was fought by a mixed army of portuguese settlers, native americans and descendants of africans. Its native commander was ennobled and his native ancestry was not a problem. The barrier, which also applied to descendants of european colonists, was that the office holders in a colony would not easily be allowed to take office in Europe or in a different colony. That was a form of elite monopoly on offices, which european aristocratic families held, being closer to court.

What Angola lacked, and the decisive reasons why it was Brasil and not Angola that got colonized in the 18th century, were good navigable rivers, and wealth as a draw. Africa was almost entirely "empty" of permanent settlements, same as Brasil was, so no war loot in either place. But Brasil had huge mineral wealth available for picking: gold and diamonds, the wealthiest fields in the world in the 18th century. Angola didn't. Diamonds would be found only much, much later and far in the interior. Namibia's diamonds, sitting on the desert beaches, ironically remained unnoticed and undisturbed also until quite late, even while european ships passed them by en route to fill holds with lesser riches in Asia.

Without wealth as a draw, Africa just couldn't compete with Brasil in terms of appeal for colonists. Colonists chose to go to Brasil. That imo was more decisive that the ravages of disease in Africa.

This is not to dismiss that problem of disease. In terms of effort by the portuguese crown, at one point the investment in Angola was quite high. The first iron foundry set up in a colony was in Angola, Nova Oeiras. It may not seem far from the coast, nothing comparable to Minas Gerais in Brasil, but but was 200 km. That was not a "coastal outpost", as people think of european presence in Africa before the 19th century. It was the interior, with all its difficulties. There was an effort not just to built military posts, also to fixate local populations into settlements and to develop a local economy capable of exporting new local products made with imported technology. Basques were hired to build the foundry and teach local blacksmiths methods for larger-scale production.
But the effort foundered. The african blacksmiths had an elite status as indispensable artisans in their communities. They would not willingly convert to wage laborers in a factory. Just as industrialization destroyed artisanal work in Europe only through violence, expropriation and threat of starvation, so would it have to use violence there to convert artisans into factory workers. But the government apparatus, the troops, budget and colonists available never could support that: Africa is vast, locals simply left and no one could keep them there. And the foreign skilled workers died of disease before teaching the locals. The project endured from 1766 to 1772, then the factory was shut down and restarted in Brasil. There it prospered. People wanted to go to Brasil, not Angola. The europeans who tried to set up trade with local blacksmiths tended to get sick and die in a dozen years or less. With replacements and time nature could have been tamed. But there were no replacements - only convicts went to Angola, free colonists always chose wealthier Brasil.
 
English version of that link.

Royal Iron Factory​

Nova Oeiras, Kwanza, Angola​

Equipment and Infrastructures​

More than two centuries later, only ruins remain but they are still impressive. According to Batalha, “two sections of the Luínha dam, the 22-arch aqueduct, approximately 118 metres long, which brought the water necessary to operate the engines, a large compartment for hydraulic wheels, a furnace, a large iron whorkshop with three storage houses and a channel for draining water”. Near the factory, a town named Nova Oeiras was built in the 18th century, aimed at housing the craftsmen and workers at the foundry. There was also the construction of a church, a royal factory and other public buildings of which only ruins remain. In 1925 the ensemble was rediscovered and classified as a monument. In 1972 some ruins were excavated and traces of the town of Nova Oeiras were identified while the masonry walls of the dam were partially restored. The current state of this ensemble is unknown.

As you point out, it was disease that trumped the poor economics. In the western hemisphere the most valuable resources were more obvious and accessible and there were fewer, if any, obvious disease risks. In Africa the obvious and most readily available resource were slaves. High profit margins and white people didn't have to live there. As soon as medical tech caught up with Africa illnesses, the interior opened up.
 
By the 15th century, Sub-Saharan Africa wasn't less sparsely populated than the Americas. The reason why the Americans could be colonized first is mostly a matter of disease. Smallpox devastated American natives whereas in Africa, malaria was devastating settlers. That's the major reason why Portuguese colonization of Africa was first only limited to remote outposts, many of them being located on islands (Cape Verde, Gorée, São Tomé, Principe, Zanzibar, Socotra). Portuguese colonists had much less difficulties to penetrate Brazil inland. Now it's also true Africans mastered iron smelting which wasn't the case of American natives, but no matter what it's certainly not because of a lack of interest that Africa wasn't colonized in-depth before the 19th century.

Also we cannot compare the relatively limited technological advantage of Europe at the 15th century to what it has become at the 19th century, after 4 centuries of control of global trade and the industrial revolution. What really gave an edge to Europeans was primarily the mastery of high seas navigation.

Interesting comparisons. I never thought of what happened in those two continents that way before.



Please let me apologize in advance as I don't intend to hijack this thread but...

Marla are you the same person who created CivIII scenario 14 Juliette?
 
Please let me apologize in advance as I don't intend to hijack this thread but...

Marla are you the same person who created CivIII scenario 14 Juliette?

I needed time to figure out what you were talking about but indeed, I made a world war 1 scenario for Civ3 that was named "July 1914 : on the eve of the great war". That was 20 years ago, you have a pretty good memory!
 
I needed time to figure out what you were talking about but indeed, I made a world war 1 scenario for Civ3 that was named "July 1914 : on the eve of the great war". That was 20 years ago, you have a pretty good memory!
Indeed I do when it comes to CivIII. LOL

Yes that was a really great scenario and one of the earlier WW1 user created scenarios. I must have played a lot of that one back in the day.
 
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