1. We have added the ability to collapse/expand forum categories and widgets on forum home.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. All Civ avatars are brought back and available for selection in the Avatar Gallery! There are 945 avatars total.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. To make the site more secure, we have installed SSL certificates and enabled HTTPS for both the main site and forums.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Civ6 is released! Order now! (Amazon US | Amazon UK | Amazon CA | Amazon DE | Amazon FR)
    Dismiss Notice
  5. Dismiss Notice
  6. Forum account upgrades are available for ad-free browsing.
    Dismiss Notice

Old Deity BOs are suicide now?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by RealHuhn, May 14, 2018.

  1. RealHuhn

    RealHuhn Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2009
    Messages:
    1,008
    Location:
    Germany
    Two examples from my last two starts:
    Spoiler :
    20180513154255_1.jpg 20180514171816_1.jpg


    Either multiple barb camps swarm me or one camp and one AI. On the 2nd screenshot, a third camp spawned on turn 25 only 4 tiles to the left. First barb warriors showed up on turn 15! The AI is also a lot better at taking cities now. The only way to deal with this without reloading a million times is to adjust my build order. But how?

    It almost feels like I need a second warrior and even keep the scout nearby to help with blocking units. Add a slinger for the Archery boost and we are looking at delayed expansion by 20 turns or so. This is rough, especially with low production tiles.
    Not sure where I mix in the settler or worker for quick Agoge or a 2nd city.

    I'm still not sure what the ideal solution is here.

    Any suggestions? Might have to play a few more games to get a feel for it :crazyeye:
     
  2. Forster

    Forster Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2005
    Messages:
    300
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Columbus, GA
    This is how my starts often look. I still start the same way. If I get waxed early, or I go about 50 turns doing nothing by trying to survive, I just start a new game. I guess I do the early circle with my warrior and scout more often to get a heads up on what is out there. If it looks bad, I will shift production from my builder/settler to warriors and slingers.
     
  3. Fluphen Azine

    Fluphen Azine What is Fluphen Azine?

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2013
    Messages:
    661
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    I am not sure if they are suicide but I certainly see a difference in game play after the last patch. The barb camps are more aggressive in my games. I find that starting dirt, as always, is a large factor in an easy or harder game. I play every start without mods or reloading. Sometimes I swear the rolls aren't very good and it happens a lot where I will either be in tundra or desert or low production and get boxed in pretty quick. Usually I can just slog my way out but with Loyalty it can be even more difficult and I might have to just raze cities. Sometimes I go double scout and after that mix in Slingers and Warriors to get 3 of each. Some games I have had crazy builders from huts and other games nothing. Scouting seems important. I have noticed my easy Deity games are when I am able to roll a Civ right off the jump and after that start expanding once I get Magnus and the 50% card and the Free Settler Pop promotion to Magnus. Since I have been taking risks and used to older Game Play I have had some games where I get rolled right away or only have 3 cities at turn 80. I am finding the game to be more difficult though for sure if you play every start and never reload. Try not to read or watch the LPs of most of these guys with quick wins because they are cooking those maps by either reloading after scouting the map or they reload until they have really good dirt so you can't listen to these BO's of how they go builder, settler, builder or how they buy monuments on 5 cities they built by turn 60... those games happen but they are not the norm when you play all starts with no reloads.

    For me... I usually like to go straight military and I tend to build more encampments now and get those GG's rolling out. I still find that is the best way to deal with getting space since I play mostly Pan Maps with Random Civs and all Standard settings. As always the Top Tier Civs are much easier no matter what on Deity and if you roll a Bottom Tier Civ and bad dirt it can be very difficult to get anything going. I also like to spawn bust Barb Camps which was pretty big in Civ IV and you can use those scouts later to garrison your cities. I just find that the games are longer for me in general now since you have to plan out your attacks and can't just constantly steamroll all the time every time now.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2018
  4. Arent11

    Arent11 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2016
    Messages:
    645
    Try to not explore. I know, it seems counterintuitive, but I have had limited success with simply sticking to my turf.
     
  5. Fluphen Azine

    Fluphen Azine What is Fluphen Azine?

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2013
    Messages:
    661
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Some games I will just stick to my own turf like you say but that is because at times I get lazy about scouting. The problem is that the more in a game that I explore the better my games have been. You get rewarded too much with huts and finding CS's before the AI kills them all is a big part of the early game. If a players is gonna just keep re-rolling till they have good or great dirt...it doesn't really matter but if a player is going to play any start and never reload in my experience it is always best to invest in an army early. The Barbs seem to be on steroids on Deity since the last patch. This is a double edged sword since you can get more era points by killing camps but if you want to expand quick you have to invest in some spawn busting so you don't get swarmed like the OP's picture. If I can squeeze in an early settler for two cities I will do it but you have to scout to see what you need to do. For me, I can't just do the same old same old... I have to see who my neighbors are and I know I have to try to take them down asap or at least get some cities up so I can take them down later. Speed is key with the new additions even more so now with the Loyalty Pressure. You can't just sit back and pump out 4 or 5 cities and get everything online. You have to have an army to kill these Barbs and deter your neighbor. As always you have to send a delegation and get friendly with these AI's on the turn you meet them or you are going to risk getting rolled. May the Lord help you if you have Norway next to you... they had about 15 units I had to kill very early last time I was next to them. They aren't dancing anymore they are attacking the city pretty good compared to before.
     
  6. Arent11

    Arent11 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2016
    Messages:
    645
    I just meant hiding for the first few turns until you get agoge.
     
  7. RealHuhn

    RealHuhn Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2009
    Messages:
    1,008
    Location:
    Germany
    Thanks for your answers! I agree, the barbs are crazy.

    I've tried a few more things and I had the most success with going warrior first, then scout -> settler -> builder . If you don't have +2 production tiles you need to buy one in 2nd ring.

    Both warriors search the area around your capital for barb camps and attack immediately if they spot one. Then return to the capital to block a possible AI attack. The scout can also be pulled back if things get too rough (and earn a promotion) but at least the barbs should be under control.
    Scout first is still too slow. You need that 2nd warrior asap to be able to clear multiple barb camps around your capital. A slinger also can't do that on his own.

    Sure it's a little slower than pre patch but you get some nice promotions out of it. I think it works fine. There are some rushes like the Nubian Pitati rush that is pretty much gameover now but that's just how it is.
     
  8. Pietato

    Pietato Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2014
    Messages:
    594
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Barbs have always been like that. You can start next to a camp and be immediately spotted by a scout.
     
  9. Fluphen Azine

    Fluphen Azine What is Fluphen Azine?

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2013
    Messages:
    661
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    I just played a game that lasted about 20 turns or so before I had enough. Deity, Random, Standard (I rolled Poland)... I didn't have barb trouble but I had ocean to the W and SW. Arabia to the N. Japan to the E and SE. France to the NE. Needless to say because I made a mistake early before some vision and put some turns into BW instead of going AH, Arch I got swarmed pretty quick and my capital was even under Rebellion. I surrendered more so than rage quit. I suppose if I would of got my delegations up and went slinger/archer x 6 I could of fought my way out of the box but Japan got hostile after I forgot the delegation and was worse than any barb problems. I mean 3 Civ Capitals within 10 hexes isn't so bad because I could of rolled them early but they planted all expos on top of me boxing me in with no expansion spot by turn 10. You need perfect early game play to beat that IMO but I could be wrong... I am not as skilled as many of these players on this forum.
     
  10. RealHuhn

    RealHuhn Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2009
    Messages:
    1,008
    Location:
    Germany
    You got loyalty pressure in your capital? That's rough. Never happened to me :crazyeye:

    Anyway, I feel like going straight for Animal Husbandry -> Archery is impractical and not a good tactic.
    I'm always surprised how much I can achieve with fortifying melee units. Even a scout is pretty good at it, at least against barbs with the +5 combat strength card.

    That's why I think that going for a 2nd warrior is a better defense against turn 15 barbs and turn 20 AI rush than a slinger or an Archer. Because the AI simply doesn't care about your Archer and attacks your city. A blocking melee unit cannot beat the rush on its own but at least it buys you valuable time to adjust your strategy. So on maps without a rush you don't sit there with a useless archer and wasted science.

    Blocking with melee units is the best compromise imo. Also, with two warriors you can quickly eliminate barb camps before those camps spawn their first units.

    Long story short. Pre patch I always went slinger first. Now it's warrior first.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  11. Fluphen Azine

    Fluphen Azine What is Fluphen Azine?

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2013
    Messages:
    661
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    No doubt. I think going warrior instead of archers is pretty good to. I'll try that more in my games. Balance has always been trouble in Civ games. That game was pretty ugly I had 3 enemy capitals all within ten hexes of me and they dropped every expo right in front of me before I could get anything out. Only Japan had to move when I blocked him a bit. I do need to get better at blocking... I have always been bad at that or just ignored it from Civ IV on up. I have to change my ways... I have always gone archers into Crossbows unless I have horses. I am really bad at timing Knight rushes or pushes. My games are either I am way behind or way ahead. I rarely have anything in the middle. I just finished up a game with Rome... I had everything... plenty of land to expand... neighbors were Japan and Aztecs but best friends. I built over ten cities of my own and was way ahead from the jump. I found a relic and 2 Science CS's along with many other CS's. I had 3 free scouts and lots of gold and a wonder and I had over 50 Era points which is a personal best for my first Golden Age. Many times I end up in a Dark age at 11 era points and jump to a Heroic Age but the way I understand it is that that is a bad idea... 2 Golden Ages are better but I am really bad at getting to Normal or Golden Ages for my first one. I don't see how these pros do it every game. I think they re-roll more maps and don't play poor starting dirt.
     
  12. Unconquered Sun

    Unconquered Sun Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,426
    Chances are old BO were always suboptimal, but you didn't know it as the game lacked any outside pressure.

    The more difficult the opposition (whether a Deity level worthy of the name, or competent MP), the starker the difference between optimal and suboptimal.
     
  13. Fluphen Azine

    Fluphen Azine What is Fluphen Azine?

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2013
    Messages:
    661
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Yes most of us are just playing the game for fun. Although some players can play at high optimum levels most of us are slugging through it. I am not the type of player who is going to analyze every move to be at maximum optimal ness... if that is even a word lol. I think 3% of us play Deity all the time anyway. Instead of telling us how our BOs are not good enough or not optimal enough could you enlighten us and give us better options to the build orders so that we can gain a stronger game and learn?? While you are at it please explain how to overcome poor starting dirt like no production or lots of desert or lots of tundra snow instead of just re-rolling!?
     
    Forster likes this.

Share This Page