Old Deity BOs are suicide now?

[RealHuhn]

Two examples from my last two starts:

Spoiler :

Either multiple barb camps swarm me or one camp and one AI. On the 2nd screenshot, a third camp spawned on turn 25 only 4 tiles to the left. First barb warriors showed up on turn 15! The AI is also a lot better at taking cities now. The only way to deal with this without reloading a million times is to adjust my build order. But how?

It almost feels like I need a second warrior and even keep the scout nearby to help with blocking units. Add a slinger for the Archery boost and we are looking at delayed expansion by 20 turns or so. This is rough, especially with low production tiles.
Not sure where I mix in the settler or worker for quick Agoge or a 2nd city.

I'm still not sure what the ideal solution is here.

Any suggestions? Might have to play a few more games to get a feel for it

 

[Forster]

This is how my starts often look. I still start the same way. If I get waxed early, or I go about 50 turns doing nothing by trying to survive, I just start a new game. I guess I do the early circle with my warrior and scout more often to get a heads up on what is out there. If it looks bad, I will shift production from my builder/settler to warriors and slingers.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I am not sure if they are suicide but I certainly see a difference in game play after the last patch. The barb camps are more aggressive in my games. I find that starting dirt, as always, is a large factor in an easy or harder game. I play every start without mods or reloading. Sometimes I swear the rolls aren't very good and it happens a lot where I will either be in tundra or desert or low production and get boxed in pretty quick. Usually I can just slog my way out but with Loyalty it can be even more difficult and I might have to just raze cities. Sometimes I go double scout and after that mix in Slingers and Warriors to get 3 of each. Some games I have had crazy builders from huts and other games nothing. Scouting seems important. I have noticed my easy Deity games are when I am able to roll a Civ right off the jump and after that start expanding once I get Magnus and the 50% card and the Free Settler Pop promotion to Magnus. Since I have been taking risks and used to older Game Play I have had some games where I get rolled right away or only have 3 cities at turn 80. I am finding the game to be more difficult though for sure if you play every start and never reload. Try not to read or watch the LPs of most of these guys with quick wins because they are cooking those maps by either reloading after scouting the map or they reload until they have really good dirt so you can't listen to these BO's of how they go builder, settler, builder or how they buy monuments on 5 cities they built by turn 60... those games happen but they are not the norm when you play all starts with no reloads.

For me... I usually like to go straight military and I tend to build more encampments now and get those GG's rolling out. I still find that is the best way to deal with getting space since I play mostly Pan Maps with Random Civs and all Standard settings. As always the Top Tier Civs are much easier no matter what on Deity and if you roll a Bottom Tier Civ and bad dirt it can be very difficult to get anything going. I also like to spawn bust Barb Camps which was pretty big in Civ IV and you can use those scouts later to garrison your cities. I just find that the games are longer for me in general now since you have to plan out your attacks and can't just constantly steamroll all the time every time now.

 

[Arent11]

Any suggestions? Might have to play a few more games to get a feel for it

Try to not explore. I know, it seems counterintuitive, but I have had limited success with simply sticking to my turf.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Try to not explore. I know, it seems counterintuitive, but I have had limited success with simply sticking to my turf.

Some games I will just stick to my own turf like you say but that is because at times I get lazy about scouting. The problem is that the more in a game that I explore the better my games have been. You get rewarded too much with huts and finding CS's before the AI kills them all is a big part of the early game. If a players is gonna just keep re-rolling till they have good or great dirt...it doesn't really matter but if a player is going to play any start and never reload in my experience it is always best to invest in an army early. The Barbs seem to be on steroids on Deity since the last patch. This is a double edged sword since you can get more era points by killing camps but if you want to expand quick you have to invest in some spawn busting so you don't get swarmed like the OP's picture. If I can squeeze in an early settler for two cities I will do it but you have to scout to see what you need to do. For me, I can't just do the same old same old... I have to see who my neighbors are and I know I have to try to take them down asap or at least get some cities up so I can take them down later. Speed is key with the new additions even more so now with the Loyalty Pressure. You can't just sit back and pump out 4 or 5 cities and get everything online. You have to have an army to kill these Barbs and deter your neighbor. As always you have to send a delegation and get friendly with these AI's on the turn you meet them or you are going to risk getting rolled. May the Lord help you if you have Norway next to you... they had about 15 units I had to kill very early last time I was next to them. They aren't dancing anymore they are attacking the city pretty good compared to before.

 

[Arent11]

You can't just sit back and pump out 4 or 5 cities and get everything online. You have to have an army to kill these Barbs and deter your neighbor.

I just meant hiding for the first few turns until you get agoge.

 

[RealHuhn]

Thanks for your answers! I agree, the barbs are crazy.

I've tried a few more things and I had the most success with going warrior first, then scout -> settler -> builder . If you don't have +2 production tiles you need to buy one in 2nd ring.

Both warriors search the area around your capital for barb camps and attack immediately if they spot one. Then return to the capital to block a possible AI attack. The scout can also be pulled back if things get too rough (and earn a promotion) but at least the barbs should be under control.
Scout first is still too slow. You need that 2nd warrior asap to be able to clear multiple barb camps around your capital. A slinger also can't do that on his own.

Sure it's a little slower than pre patch but you get some nice promotions out of it. I think it works fine. There are some rushes like the Nubian Pitati rush that is pretty much gameover now but that's just how it is.

 

[Pietato]

Barbs have always been like that. You can start next to a camp and be immediately spotted by a scout.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I just played a game that lasted about 20 turns or so before I had enough. Deity, Random, Standard (I rolled Poland)... I didn't have barb trouble but I had ocean to the W and SW. Arabia to the N. Japan to the E and SE. France to the NE. Needless to say because I made a mistake early before some vision and put some turns into BW instead of going AH, Arch I got swarmed pretty quick and my capital was even under Rebellion. I surrendered more so than rage quit. I suppose if I would of got my delegations up and went slinger/archer x 6 I could of fought my way out of the box but Japan got hostile after I forgot the delegation and was worse than any barb problems. I mean 3 Civ Capitals within 10 hexes isn't so bad because I could of rolled them early but they planted all expos on top of me boxing me in with no expansion spot by turn 10. You need perfect early game play to beat that IMO but I could be wrong... I am not as skilled as many of these players on this forum.

 

[RealHuhn]

I just played a game that lasted about 20 turns or so before I had enough. Deity, Random, Standard (I rolled Poland)... I didn't have barb trouble but I had ocean to the W and SW. Arabia to the N. Japan to the E and SE. France to the NE. Needless to say because I made a mistake early before some vision and put some turns into BW instead of going AH, Arch I got swarmed pretty quick and my capital was even under Rebellion. I surrendered more so than rage quit. I suppose if I would of got my delegations up and went slinger/archer x 6 I could of fought my way out of the box but Japan got hostile after I forgot the delegation and was worse than any barb problems. I mean 3 Civ Capitals within 10 hexes isn't so bad because I could of rolled them early but they planted all expos on top of me boxing me in with no expansion spot by turn 10. You need perfect early game play to beat that IMO but I could be wrong... I am not as skilled as many of these players on this forum.

You got loyalty pressure in your capital? That's rough. Never happened to me

Anyway, I feel like going straight for Animal Husbandry -> Archery is impractical and not a good tactic.
I'm always surprised how much I can achieve with fortifying melee units. Even a scout is pretty good at it, at least against barbs with the +5 combat strength card.

That's why I think that going for a 2nd warrior is a better defense against turn 15 barbs and turn 20 AI rush than a slinger or an Archer. Because the AI simply doesn't care about your Archer and attacks your city. A blocking melee unit cannot beat the rush on its own but at least it buys you valuable time to adjust your strategy. So on maps without a rush you don't sit there with a useless archer and wasted science.

Blocking with melee units is the best compromise imo. Also, with two warriors you can quickly eliminate barb camps before those camps spawn their first units.

Long story short. Pre patch I always went slinger first. Now it's warrior first.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

You got loyalty pressure in your capital? That's rough. Never happened to me

Anyway, I feel like going straight for Animal Husbandry -> Archery is impractical and not a good tactic.
I'm always surprised how much I can achieve with fortifying melee units. Even a scout is pretty good at it, at least against barbs with the +5 combat strength card.

That's why I think that going for a 2nd warrior is a better defense against turn 15 barbs and turn 20 AI rush than a slinger or an Archer. Because the AI simply doesn't care about your Archer and attacks your city. A blocking melee unit cannot beat the rush on its own but at least it buys you valuable time to adjust your strategy. So on maps without a rush you don't sit there with a useless archer and wasted science.

Blocking with melee units is the best compromise imo. Also, with two warriors you can quickly eliminate barb camps before those camps spawn their first units.

Long story short. Pre patch I always went slinger first. Now it's warrior first.

No doubt. I think going warrior instead of archers is pretty good to. I'll try that more in my games. Balance has always been trouble in Civ games. That game was pretty ugly I had 3 enemy capitals all within ten hexes of me and they dropped every expo right in front of me before I could get anything out. Only Japan had to move when I blocked him a bit. I do need to get better at blocking... I have always been bad at that or just ignored it from Civ IV on up. I have to change my ways... I have always gone archers into Crossbows unless I have horses. I am really bad at timing Knight rushes or pushes. My games are either I am way behind or way ahead. I rarely have anything in the middle. I just finished up a game with Rome... I had everything... plenty of land to expand... neighbors were Japan and Aztecs but best friends. I built over ten cities of my own and was way ahead from the jump. I found a relic and 2 Science CS's along with many other CS's. I had 3 free scouts and lots of gold and a wonder and I had over 50 Era points which is a personal best for my first Golden Age. Many times I end up in a Dark age at 11 era points and jump to a Heroic Age but the way I understand it is that that is a bad idea... 2 Golden Ages are better but I am really bad at getting to Normal or Golden Ages for my first one. I don't see how these pros do it every game. I think they re-roll more maps and don't play poor starting dirt.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Chances are old BO were always suboptimal, but you didn't know it as the game lacked any outside pressure.

The more difficult the opposition (whether a Deity level worthy of the name, or competent MP), the starker the difference between optimal and suboptimal.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Chances are old BO were always suboptimal, but you didn't know it as the game lacked any outside pressure.

The more difficult the opposition (whether a Deity level worthy of the name, or competent MP), the starker the difference between optimal and suboptimal.

Yes most of us are just playing the game for fun. Although some players can play at high optimum levels most of us are slugging through it. I am not the type of player who is going to analyze every move to be at maximum optimal ness... if that is even a word lol. I think 3% of us play Deity all the time anyway. Instead of telling us how our BOs are not good enough or not optimal enough could you enlighten us and give us better options to the build orders so that we can gain a stronger game and learn?? While you are at it please explain how to overcome poor starting dirt like no production or lots of desert or lots of tundra snow instead of just re-rolling!?

 

[eleven11]

Don't take this the wrong way but are you correctly anticipating the threat? A scout from a barb camp within 15 tiles will find you. They just will. You are blessed if they don't find you in 10-15 turns. If your initial warrior comes across a barb camp just take it out immediately. If it's close to a CS I may stay close and let the CS AI weaken it for an easy civic boost. For your initial build, try a 2nd warrior. Use it the same way. Crush barbs. If a barb camp starts spawning horses and throwing them at my capital... well I usually restart because that just throws my entire game off.

I disagree about not scouting early. The barbs will still find you and then you will be at a disadvantage of not knowing where they are located.

 

[RealHuhn]

Don't take this the wrong way but are you correctly anticipating the threat? A scout from a barb camp within 15 tiles will find you. They just will. You are blessed if they don't find you in 10-15 turns. If your initial warrior comes across a barb camp just take it out immediately. If it's close to a CS I may stay close and let the CS AI weaken it for an easy civic boost. For your initial build, try a 2nd warrior. Use it the same way. Crush barbs. If a barb camp starts spawning horses and throwing them at my capital... well I usually restart because that just throws my entire game off.

I disagree about not scouting early. The barbs will still find you and then you will be at a disadvantage of not knowing where they are located.

Yep, I agree. I think the absolute savest route you can take is something like slinger warrior slinger and tech straight to Archery. However, this opening is way too slow for my taste and ruins all my timings for stuff like abusing the district discount mechanism or getting an early wonder like the Oracle.

In most games, I build something like Warrior -> Scout -> Settler or Builder depending on the map -> Slinger for Archery eureka -> Builder/Settler. Slinger can even wait if I don't have a close neighbour. With an early 2nd warrior, barbs can be eliminated before they can become a threat. If an AI rushes me, I sometimes lose the game but I at least have a chance to adjust my build order and build more units.

On Deity, the most important thing is a couple of high production tiles in first ring though. That basically means a free unit.

Early culture is also very beneficial even for defense because A) your cultural borders expand to high production tiles and B) you can reach Magnus and Early Empire faster to quickly chop/build a few settlers with +50% cards. Otherwise, catching up takes too long.
Long story short, buying a monument in your 2nd city is a pretty good tactic I think.

 

[eleven11]

On Deity, the most important thing is a couple of high production tiles in first ring though. That basically means a free unit.

Early culture is also very beneficial even for defense because A) your cultural borders expand to high production tiles and B) you can reach Magnus and Early Empire faster to quickly chop/build a few settlers with +50% cards. Otherwise, catching up takes too long.
Long story short, buying a monument in your 2nd city is a pretty good tactic I think.

Yep, my priorities in first 40 turns are Expansion, protection, culture. All that requires great production. Magnus and Oligarchy ASAP.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

I agree with you guys that expansion is more important. I do not agree with reloading or re-rolling. I play all starts even the ones where I might have to move a few turns. It depends on the situations since the game is situational. Sometimes I go scout/scout. Other times I might go builder/settler when it looks like I am on the edge of the map and have plenty of room but usually I spawn in not so great land with some bad Civ since I go Deity Pangaea All Random/All Standard and many times I might be in the middle of the map in the Desert or some goofy Tundra Roll with Desert in the North. Some of the maps are just unfair/ugly but I like to play them all. Sometimes I get horse rushed but going with that warrior start gets rid of that because I can set up a perimeter and kill barb camps earning me era points and killing scouts.

Nobody is debating you guys that expansion and infrastructure is a more solid opening but when you play all starts and all Civs I tend to find out that many times you have to be more army dependent and many times I will just go two cities and start to roll the CS's or AI. I have also had some games where I will try to get greedy and the AI will roll me. I have had some great games going scout/scout and I have had some great games going with bunch of units scouting a perimeter.

Thanks for the input though because I know my game isn't very good so I appreciate the help. I also tend to get lazy with the Governors moving them around and being optimal with them. In 20 years I haven't been very optimal with Civ so I see no reason to start now

 

[eleven11]

I reroll horse spawns only if they get out of control like I only have 1 warrior in range. My game time is limited and I want to enjoy the game I'm playing over the next several hours. Sometimes horse spawns can derail my game by 20 or more turns which is critical in the early game. I just count it as a loss and move on.

Here is my post from a similar thread... as you can see I have no solid build order.. just build ideas. I drive my priorities on protection and expansion but I'm fairly opportunistic with other priorities such as builders or culture and will try to take appropriate chances. Sometimes I get rolled, sometimes it works out great.. and sometimes I squeak by. If you are getting rolled then I'd think more often than not chances were taken that should not have been.

I prefer late classical wars on Deity. Sometimes the AI disagrees and comes earlier.. it's important to keep a heads up on them and switch strategies if needed. If they cap a nearby CS then you can be assured that you are next. If Sumeria, Germany, Zulu, America, Aztecs are within 15 tiles.. you can be assured it will be an early war (almost all Civs, really, but these come fast and hard). Macedon I've seen go off and do their own thing so they are 50/50.

I will always at least punch an AI in the nose with an early war. I roughly do this:

Initial - Warrior - The AI seems to respect the 2 warrior setup a bit more (I said a bit.. they will still attack). Also can't beat the capability to take out 2 barb camps in the first 15-20 turns. This can be done with a slinger (taking a hit and promoting on rough terrain) if there are hills or trees within 2 tiles of the barb camp.
Are there 3 improvable tiles? Y = Builder, N = Settler
Slinger x 2 (sometimes I delay these until I get Archery if I plan to use my gold to buy a monument or settler. The bonus with the delay is that I usually have Craftsmanship at that time.)
Settler or builder (the opposite of my pick above)
Settler - skip if there is an AI super close.
Military until I feel I can take a couple cities. Also mix in at least one monument.

The first choice for settling cities 2 and 3 are based on production. I want at least 1 3 hammer tile, if not 2. When those cities come online they go Archer heavy. Or if i'm culture starved I may do a monument. The earlier you get to Oligarchy the better. If at any point I see a warrior or chariot where it shouldn't be (i.e. on the way to my territory) I swap back to military. Gotta keep those lines of sight up.

I'm adaptable though. If I'm production poor unless I improve tiles I may start with a builder - with the caution that if I see the barb situation becoming crazy (horses or in my 1st expansion area) I may switch back to Warrior/Slinger. I also sometimes try to get an early Monument. To rush buy this requires a decent gold tile or two plus a goody hut. I've played a few games where I've started with Monument and rush bought a second. It's an early setback but it gets to Oligarchy much faster. However, this requires a capital with at least 2 lux and good production because fitting a 3rd settler in is almost impossible without chops.

Basically plan to start with the BO of Warrior -> Slinger x3. But constantly evaluate your situation and slot in settlers, monuments, etc as allowed by your situation. Any BO that isn't pure military is a risk on Deity. And sometimes... not getting a second settler out is a risk.

 

[kb27787]

You got loyalty pressure in your capital? That's rough. Never happened to me

Anyway, I feel like going straight for Animal Husbandry -> Archery is impractical and not a good tactic.
I'm always surprised how much I can achieve with fortifying melee units. Even a scout is pretty good at it, at least against barbs with the +5 combat strength card.

That's why I think that going for a 2nd warrior is a better defense against turn 15 barbs and turn 20 AI rush than a slinger or an Archer. Because the AI simply doesn't care about your Archer and attacks your city. A blocking melee unit cannot beat the rush on its own but at least it buys you valuable time to adjust your strategy. So on maps without a rush you don't sit there with a useless archer and wasted science.

Blocking with melee units is the best compromise imo. Also, with two warriors you can quickly eliminate barb camps before those camps spawn their first units.

Long story short. Pre patch I always went slinger first. Now it's warrior first.

An archer is never a waste (unless you play with barbs off); a scout is OK against a single barb, but worthless against the 8 barbs that spawn because your scout "wakes up" the barb camp (I cannot really predict when a camp will act like that though... it seems to be random). Getting that early slinger out means you have a much better chance at getting archery boost (it's harder to get than it looks! Slingers are very weak units and quite hard to last hit with them); in my experience, even a slinger is more efficient at clearing barb camps when paired your starting warrior than 2 warriors by themselves--the barb AI spearman is somehow coded to leave his camp when a slinger gets within sight (even if the slinger is across a river or on a hill--which lets your warrior take the camp without any loss of HP.
Besides, I like to upgrade 3 slingers to archers rather than hard build them. Besides AH to archery lends itself naturally to horseback riding next; once you get horsemen usually you will have a breather for a while. You even unlock a very buildable wonder on deity (ToA) in the meantime for possible drama eureka.

In all those screenshots with builders and scouts (completely wasted hammers IMO), they player would've survived easily if he had 3 archers. Even horse barbs (20 strength only) are not so scary because you can one-shot those horses with 3 archers. I would only go builder first if the best tiles can be improved right away (for example, you cannot improve a forest grassland hill, so why get that builder out to improve that wheat tile early?) these are generally horse and sheep which are 4 yield tiles which can repay you back with the early extra hammer (not to mention that you might as well get that horse hooked up so you can sell it or use it yourself once you reach the tech)--the risk? Once a barb scout finds improved tiles, he will run back to alert his buddies to come pillage them--on the contrary if there is no improved tiles, sometimes he'll just continue running around. Anyway when you have no improved tiles and just a naked capital, the barbs cannot do anything (barbs will not capture capitals, so don't worry about them; they can get your capital to zero HP, but they cannot take it)--your 2nd city from that early settler however, can be captured and razed--so early expansion carries a risk.

Slinger, followed by builder is also OK. You'd be surprised how surprisingly easy you can repel 8 early barbs (warriors and slingers) with an archer in your city. Once the barbs get archers too though, this is where it starts becoming a pain to deal with them.

 

[Victoria]

A great start is 7 production in you cap on T1 (sure you can get more but not v often) but 6 probably makes more sense to talk about. If you are very lucky your second pop can make +3 but often +2.
A builder gives +2/+3 normally to this (if you can use a builder) which is a big benefit % wise and you need every benefit on deity. Agoge is another +50% so that builder is still an aspiration but if you start in the middle of a continent it’s a stupid move, not so much for the civs which is a big thing but the barb scouts really do go everywhere fast and they will attack and spawning 7 units in 7 turns they are arguable worse than a civ early, especially as by the time you beat them up you are vulnerable to an AI which is likely to now come with archers.
A slinger is just too vulnerable to build first, you do need that warrior as @eleven11 implies, that’s what I would build central with no mountains. However in other situations like near the sea you have a good safe border, it’s faster for your warrior to circle (circling is such a key survival tactic) and it may be worth getting a scout out. Often a builder first is too fast if you need more than 1 tech to use its charges well so there is room for something else and the 100% vital thing to do first, as well as your warrior destroying a camp, is to stop scout getting visibility of your city.... and as a side note, a city on a hill is defensible but very visible (+1 tile). You know you cannot easily kill scouts but putting a scout in front of a barb scout normally sends it of somewhere else. With a barb and a scout (fast to build) and some mountain/shore protection you will normally survive, only when you feel safe and to agoge would I send my scout further, it is too useful during attacks when you have few troops to send it exploring.
If you are really well protected which I find happens every now and then I would go builder.
These strats work for me, I’ve played quite a few deity starts to T30 over the last 3 days just to check it out and so much depends on what civ you play. A seashore civ is safer but tends not to get the best terrain. A central location severely increases your risk of barb spawn. Playing Nubia it’s tempting to get a slinger first for the UU but I got Hammered 2/3 times for doing so. Never had issues with Monty as you really want to go warrior anyway and that extra strength just helps so much, Aztecs are again an awesome force in civ.
So bang that warrior out if at all unsure, it seems you have 300+ turns to win so as long as you chop and concentrate on your victory, you just have to survive... but always be aware that a builder is better given the chance to make it.
I would also consider visibility of capital, placing it on a hill is fine with no alternative but is a beacon to barbs. Settling on some tobacco in the grass with hills around you may be a better option.