Old English - please help

REDY

REDY

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I have to translate this this:

In til a suddane langure fele,
Bath for eld (old age) and hevynes
That his son treit wes
In til his chawbir (chamber) bede held he
Travvalit in that infirimté.
Quhile that he yalde in that langure
His spirite till his Creature.

Rycht curtasly,
And gaive hym consale of dysporte
Wyth plesand wordis of comfort
 
Ok first is about dead of John Of Gaunt(+1399). Second is what Gaunt told to his uncle (Richard II) when he was dying. The reference is probably from Scotland about 20 years later by chronicler.
 
ok, then, get an oxford historical dictionary fro myour university library, check if you can find any going for that age in English (should work, I translated a French text from the 16th century in that way) look the words up, translate them in modern English, think on the context and make the text coherent and then check for any already translated versions of the text to see if it matches.
 
REDY said:
I have to translate this this:

In til a suddane langure fele,
Bath for eld (old age) and hevynes
That his son treit wes
In til his chawbir (chamber) bede held he
Travvalit in that infirimté.
Quhile that he yalde in that langure
His spirite till his Creature.

Rycht curtasly,
And gaive hym consale of dysporte
Wyth plesand wordis of comfort
Click to expand...

Haven't quite worked out the first one is yet, but the second seems to say,

"Right courteously, and gave him counsel of support with pleasant words of comfort."

Or in a modern form.

"Gently, he supported and comforted him with kind words"

EDIT Maybe the 2nd. reads like;

"Until a sudden illness fell, but for old age and heaviness, that his son (treit?) was bed-ridden by
sickness in his infirmity. While in that illness his spirit kept him alive."

It doesn't quite make sense, but it's close, I think.
 
Here's one, but you need the actual letter markings:
http://www.oldenglishtranslator.co.uk/

and a dictionary: http://home.comcast.net/~modean52/oeme_dictionaries.htm

But think some of it might be middle english, based on references that I'm googling.
This was mostly helpful: http://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/med/lookup.html


"Treit" is a family name.

"Quhile" is while, during, or once

"Creature" is probably for 'creator', capitalized to imply 'God'.

"Travvalit" is work, job, or struggle

"infirmite" is disease or sickness

I'll guess that "Suddane" is related to 'sudant' which is serious bleeding.

"bed(e)" is almost certainly "praying" (in the religious sense).
 
GoodGame said:
Here's one, but you need the actual letter markings:
http://www.oldenglishtranslator.co.uk/

and a dictionary: http://home.comcast.net/~modean52/oeme_dictionaries.htm

But think some of it might be middle english, based on references that I'm googling.
This was mostly helpful: http://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/med/lookup.html


"Treit" is a family name.

"Quhile" is while, during, or once

"Creature" is probably for 'creator', capitalized to imply 'God'.

"Travvalit" is work, job, or struggle

"infirmite" is disease or sickness

I'll guess that "Suddane" is related to 'sudant' which is serious bleeding.

"bed(e)" is almost certainly "praying" (in the religious sense).
Click to expand...

I think we cross-posted. See above. I think a suddane langure is a sudden illness or attack. If "treit" is a family name what I suggested makes more sense. I thought "Creature" referred to spirit but maybe you're right.
 
Until a sudden languor fell, from old age and the heavyness that his son was 'Treit'. Until he was stuck in bed struggling with his infirmity. While in that languor he yielded his spirit to his creator
 
Brighteye said:
Until a sudden languor fell, from old age and the heavyness that his son was 'Treit'. Until he was stuck in bed struggling with his infirmity. While in that languor he yielded his spirit to his creator
Click to expand...

That sounds pretty accurate to me. You win the prize.:D
 
Sincerely thanks for help.
 
I'm not an English major, but I'm not convinced that 'bede' = bed in the modern sense. Etymologies are usually not straight and nice like that.


E.g. From Modern-> OE
bed [] 1. bedd n; gang m path, gelege f? lair; leger n couch, legerbedd n; ~ of death néobedd2 n corpse-bed; ~ of spirits néobedd2 n bed of death; corpse-~ néobedd2 n bed of death; sick ~ legerbedd n; 2. adj confined to ~ gelegered, gelegerod; 3. keep one’s ~ leger weardian

bed-chamber [] cot n, cote f cottage
Click to expand...

and OE-> Modern

bedbúr [] n (-es/-) bed-chamber

bedcleofa1 [] m (-n/-n) bed-chamber; lair

bedcofa [] m (-n/-n) bed-chamber

bedcofe [] f (-an/-an) bed-chamber

bedd [] n (-es/-) bed, couch, resting-place; garden-bed, plot
Click to expand...


In ME, bede looks to suggest hunting or praying, not to mention being the name of The Venerable Bede.
 
Definitely Middle English, not Old English-- more like Chaucer than Beowulf. All the French influence came in with the Normans, which was 1066, so: Middle English.

Anyway...

In til a suddane langure fele,
Into a sudden languor fell​
Bath for eld and hevynes
Both for age and heaviness​
That his son treit wes
That he soon was treated​
In til his chawbir bede held he
Into his chamber bed he hailed​
Travvalit in that infirimté.
Travailed in that infirmity​
Quhile that he yalde in that langure
While that he yielded in that languor​
His spirite till his Creature.
His spirit to his Creator.​

Rycht curtasly,
Right courteously,​
And gaive hym consale of dysporte
And gave him counsel of disport​
Wyth plesand wordis of comfort
With pleasant words of comfort​


However, I have a couple questionable theories about certain words:

In til a suddane langure fele, (This is probably an adjective, not a verb-- as in "a fell disease," being a deadly or dangerous disease)

Travvalit in that infirimté. (Could this actually be "Tramalit," as in "trammeled?" That would render this line something like "Trapped in that infirmity.")

Quhile that he yalde in that langure (Maybe "ylade," past passive for "laid," similar to "ycladde," past passive of "clothe." Also, could be related to "yield," referring to his "spirit" in the next line.)

My stab at a modern-ish translation:

Into a sudden fell disease
For both age and heaviness
He soon was treated
Into his chamber bed he hailed
Trammeled in that infirmity
While in that languor, yielded he
His spirit to his Creator.

Right courteously,
He gave him counsel to disport,
With pleasant words of comfort
 
Anyways on 'treit', it might be not a family name after all, but:


maybe if a 't' could be added to the end as some form of this word:

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/m/mec/med-idx?type=id&id=MED46899
trei (n.(1)) Also treie, trei3e, tr, trai(e, trie, (early) tre3e & (error) teie; pl. trein(e, train.

[OE trega; some exx. in -n(e may be singular forms in riming position.]

Affliction, suffering, pain; vexation, grievance; also, a grievance; ~ and tene, tene and ~.
Click to expand...

OR



totally matching, but kind of bizzare:
trait (n.) Also traite, treit, treiet, treiit, tret.

[AF]

Bread made with a coarse wheat flour, designated by statute the second lowest quality of bread; ?also, a coarse wheat flour, usu. in phrases: bred of (panis de, panis) ~; ~ lof; ~ whete.
Click to expand...

If it's the second case, maybe the old man is distressed in part that is son is very low ( a low quality of cracker). And maybe even it's an allusion to the son being dead---maybe crappy cracker is a kind of "food for worms"?


In later english forms, the manuscripts seem to make treit = treat.


@communisto, seeing that made me think of this:
Spoiler :
 
Masquerouge is closest, I think-- John of Gaunt's son, Henry Bolingbroke, was exiled by the king shortly before Gaunt's death. So John's illness is both for age and for sorrow that his son was exiled. I'm not sure how precisely to read 'treit', but that's probably the general sense of it. From GoodGame's dictionary link, it might plausibly be "sorrow that his son was vexed". I haven't been able to find convincing evidence either way.

I would disagree with Ali Zaybak's reading of 'fele'-- it's almost certainly the past tense of 'fall'.
 
Could "trait" mean "betrayed" in this context?
Or maybe "traitor"?

Depends on the circumstances of his son's exile...

EDIT: Nah, Masquerogue suggested that already.
 
Winner said:
I see the old English spelling actually made sense. I wonder how you managed to spoil the language so much :)
Click to expand...

Middle English (as this is what it is) did not have a standard orthography, so people tended to spell the words as it was in their dialect. Old English was pretty good and standardized in the West Saxon dialect. When the language was beginning to get standardized in 1470, we soon had the inconvenience of a major vowel shift, followed by a desire to spell words like Latin and French.
 
Bill3000 said:
When the language was beginning to get standardized in 1470, we soon had the inconvenience of a major vowel shift, followed by a desire to spell words like Latin and French.
Click to expand...

At least you had enough sense to drop the accents after what I hope was only a fashion. I mean, infirmité... come on!
 
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