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Old Forest Progression

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by QES, Sep 18, 2008.

  1. QES

    QES Court Jester

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    Unlike many others, this idea is fairly straightforward.

    Basic Idea:

    Make Forests under the Fellowship of the Leaves grow in age over time and influence in the game.


    Instead of "forest" and "Ancient" forest - allow there to be a progression.

    5 Tiers:


    Forest (normal) < Old Forest (minor resources boost) < Enchanted Forest (significant resources boost) < Ancient Forest (boost and chance to spawn Ents) < Impenetrable Forest (boost, ent-spawn, and "Impassable" to non-recon or non-FOL units.


    Progression could be simple: Either the tile is worked or unworked.
    If the tile is worked. It would act like Towns do - but Much, MUCH, MUCH SLOWER.
    If the tile is unworked - it reverts to a % system. Each step up is even "less likely" per turn. If for example the Forest-> Old Forest switch is 5% per turn, the Old Forest-> Enchanted Forest would be even slower, 4% (or what not).


    The basic urge here is to make it more dynamic.

    As it is - it feels like its either forest, or all ancient forest. Whenever i care to notice which is which - it's one or the other in droves, never 'patch work.'

    Just an idea - a simple one i think/hope to implement.

    -Qes

    DesignNote/Addendum:
    The Impenetrable Forests should only appear in any significant numbers, VERY VERY late game.
     
  2. fuzzy_bunnies

    fuzzy_bunnies Prince

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    What would be the benefit of this? The elves with ancient forests are already very strong, and thats just *1* extra resource from the tile (plus improvements).

    I guess if you couldn't work the tiles too, it would be ok... but then you strip away something that makes elves unique.
     
  3. thomas.berubeg

    thomas.berubeg Wandering the World

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    Aesthetics is a good reason, in my eyes
     
  4. fuzzy_bunnies

    fuzzy_bunnies Prince

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    Yea, I'm all for aesthetic reasons... I'm just not sure if the game changes are necessary.
     
  5. QES

    QES Court Jester

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    Well it's always either/or. I like Variance.


    One could make the changes VERY gradual. (These are cumulative)

    Forest: Normal
    Old Forest: 65% defense (instead of 50%)
    Enchanted Forest: Resource bonus (As now) - note this would take longer to reach than Ancient forests do now - becuase it'd have to pass through an additional stage. This would 'weaken' FOL initially - only to get stronger later in repayment
    Ancient Forest: Ent-spawning (slightly higher chance than now, for the 'wait')
    Impenetrable Forest: Impassable to all except FOL (Including FOL civs) and Recon units.


    Also - while I'm at it. I advocate here and now that Elven civs that can "make features in forests" should just also plant forests when they do so. In this - remove the 'seperate' graphics. Farms/Mines/Towns sprites could include "Forested" looks to them. Elves would then ALWAYS plant forests in any tile they improve.(With the exception of special-improvements) The improvements could represent this in resource allotment.

    This is MOSTLY just to fix the graphics issue that the farms look "on top of" the trees. ... it bugs me. Some sort of sprite/overwrite might do it.


    -Qes
     
  6. deadliver

    deadliver Loud Mouth Amateur

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    Those forests should already be impenetrable due to all the FoL units running around ganking foes with their woodsman II, first strikes and, god forbid, elfy bonus.

    Sure would look pretty though! I liked the old Ancient forests, they looked golden. :)
     
  7. Zechnophobe

    Zechnophobe Strategy Lich

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    Old Forest: 50% defense (Instead of 25%)
    Enchanted Forest: +1 Food
    Ancient Forest: Chance to spawn Treants

    A significant down tweak to an awesomely powerful strategy.
     
  8. Marksman77

    Marksman77 Aethernaut

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    When I'd also like some more gradual change than "all Forest" -> "all Ancient Forest" I think that Impenetrable Forest idea is too powerful, even in late game. Just imagine a developed elven empire with possible attack routes blocked with impenetrable forests. Other civilizations would have nothing to throw at that, given the forests surely be inflamable, like Ancient Forests now.

    Speaking of fire I'd also advocate for gradually decreasing chances of catching fire, so that every type of forest would be flammable, but the last stage.
     
  9. QES

    QES Court Jester

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    Well you should never get to the point of "all forests are 'impenetrable.' That should be beyond game-limit terms. Just pockets of them.

    Also - it'd add a use and impetus for more flying units. Because flying units could mock said forests.

    Of course i'm always for more flying units.

    -Qes
     
  10. Archon12321

    Archon12321 Chieftain

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    I like the idea of an impenetrable forest, but City's should not be able to work on it. And the should not only spawn ent's but also barbarian animals...
     
  11. Marksman77

    Marksman77 Aethernaut

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    Flyers... yes, that would be neat.
    I wonder why nobody modded it yet? Don't look at me, I can't mod :blush:

    I think cities should be able to work impenetrable forests, otherwise we would have a strange situation of FoL civs being punished for caring about their forests. Maybe forests _outside_ city rings could go impenetrable, allowing for hidden elven kingdoms you know from your fantasy books. But only if there is a sword for this shield. Yes, flyers would be good.
     
  12. Archon12321

    Archon12321 Chieftain

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    I meant, that a forest should only become impenetrable, when a city is not working on it (like becoming "really wild"). As long as the city works, it wont reach that last stage (or maybe only at a very small % chance).
     
  13. deadliver

    deadliver Loud Mouth Amateur

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    Instead of eating rabbit stew I agree. Being hynoptized by the *new* beautiful terrain will not stop me from beelining FOL and producing hunter-killer units, Chances are my workers are already farming and camping.

    No offense but Ancient forests are not a part of my plan to PWN intruders with my woodsman I/+10 attack strength hunters.

    I like this guy's idea:

     
  14. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    I think impenetrable forests would be nice if they required woodsman 1 ( or 2 ) promotion, OR "elven" racial promotion. in order to be crossed. i.e. elves can always crosse them, other races have to get woodsman 1 ( or 2, as seems most appropriate/balanced ) first. that way it's pretty easy to get some units that can cross them, but still you have to specialize them for the task. shouldn't be too unbalanced imho.
     
  15. fuzzy_bunnies

    fuzzy_bunnies Prince

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    Well... you know, in real life forests don't actually get DENSER as they get older. Nature cleans up her messes by frequently cleansing the forest floor of brush and debris using fire. Fast burning fires that consume leaves & brush don't harm the trees and are actually necessary for some seed pods to germinate.

    It was man's intervention in trying to prevent ALL forest fires that forests started to get overgrown which led to fires that burned so hot that they actually destroyed the forest.

    Older forests are actually much more clear at the ground level due to lack of light for smaller plants to grow.

    Well, that's enough reality. Bring on the skeletons and orcs!
     
  16. hbar

    hbar Constant

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    You could code it so impenetrable forests (in addition to having a low spawn chance) only appear next to the FOL holy city or another impenetrable forest. That way, they couldn't get very far very fast.
     
  17. fuzzy_bunnies

    fuzzy_bunnies Prince

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    Well, I wouldn't want impenetrable forests anywhere on my actual workable land. That would be irritating. In general though, I'm not a big fan of the impenetrable forest idea only because it can be hard to control where it is and it could potentially shut off big chunks of land from your own development.

    IE your borders create a bunch of impenetrable forest beyond your city radius and by the time you get your settler there you have to chop/burn/impenetrable forest to settle?

    Also, even if they only load outside of city BFC tiles, what happens when you build a new city there? The forests magically get younger and revert to a less impenetrable state? Or do you have to go around chopping forest?

    I like that the latest incarnation (may be earlier, I didn't pay too much attention) has ancient forests staying ancient even if you leave FOL. It didn't make sense that forests became less ancient all of a sudden.
     
  18. CarnivalBizarre

    CarnivalBizarre Warlord

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    I'm for any changes that makes the map more varied and makes more places seem individual and unique. Hard thing to accomplish in the blocky ugly world that is civ...
     
  19. QES

    QES Court Jester

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    Well in my idea, they're both workable and accessable by FOL (you) and recon units. Impenetrable forests shouldnt impede the civ who has them - ever. Just other civs trying to hurt the FOL civ.
    -Qes
     
  20. QES

    QES Court Jester

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    I should point out that the Impenetrable Forest idea isnt all that powerful.

    If you're FOL, youre neighbors might be as well - depending on how early they get it. And any FOL nation - ALL OF THEIR UNITS should be able to pass through the forest.

    So neighbors who are the same religion as you who want to pass through your forests and eat your face - still can.
    -Qes
     

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