[BTS] Old player leveling up (starting with Monarch)

[Anysense]

Another long turnset during the time of peace. I managed to build TGLi and MoM and also prepared some failgold for future use.

Quite soon there will be no need for research. You should have procured that failgold somewhere between turns 125-130, that would make huge difference. Oh, and the Sistine Chapel is unlikely to ever be finished, at least hook up another marble and give it Hatty. Perhaps, she will build it for you.
1. Its shorter than Lib=>MT=>Gunpowder, but without education the only useful line is Chemestry=>Steel. It all right if you are determined to win by domination.
2. May be peace vassal her later. Or conquer her early and use her cities to whip more units.
There is a thread about "Land Target" and how it affects peace vassaling and other stuff.
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/land-target-and-manipulating-the-ai.561148/

 

[isomittari]

Quite soon there will be no need for research. You should have procured that failgold somewhere between turns 125-130, that would make huge difference. Oh, and the Sistine Chapel is unlikely to ever be finished, at least hook up another marble and give it Hatty. Perhaps, she will build it for you.
1. Its shorter than Lib=>MT=>Gunpowder, but without education the only useful line is Chemestry=>Steel. It all right if you are determined to win by domination.
2. May be peace vassal her later. Or conquer her early and use her cities to whip more units.
There is a thread about "Land Target" and how it affects peace vassaling and other stuff.
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/land-target-and-manipulating-the-ai.561148/

Edit: Oops I forgot to an update on what's going on! So, I met Willem, Shaka, Sury and Gil who are all Hindu. Unless Hatty gets it first, one of them will probably build the AP at some point. Shaka has the lowest score, then Willem, then Sury and finally Gil just behind me. I traded some maps, and Gil has most cities, Shaka and Willem the least.

Maybe I should tech Edu then, too? How would you plan the war? Willem is probably the weakest of the bunch, as he tends to do other stuff than build troops. Shaka is the most backward, but probably has a bunch of experienced troops. Maybe leave Gil for later as he is DEF? What if one of the Hindu's builds AP? And how do I prevent the rest of the Hindu group from DoWing me? Just build a big enough army?

 

[Anysense]

If you've done Paper then its Nationlism next, then Edu->Lib->MT. No point in Guilds any more, it would save you just ~300 and you'd rather have more useful techs.
There isn't much to plan with cuirs rush. Switch to vassalage+theocracy and whip some galleons and cuirs, whip trebs once you got Engineering. Keep whipping cuirs and trebs. The ratio depends on the kind of resistance you expect.
Hindus don't even have Theology, and they so far behind that there isn't much threat anyway.

 

[Gasp]

I opened quickly your save. I've been wondering if there's a reason why you run GArtists in Karakorum? You should replace them by GS since you already have 2 free scientists.
Same with other cities some of them can run merchants instead of working water tiles for example. You could get a GM to do trade missions and this would solve your gold issue.

You should not worry too much about the war.. Cuirs are going to make it easy for you. You may not need Trebuchets at all. I'd say they will be necessary once you opponent has Engineering to build Pikes AND a hill city with a lot of defense.. Or else Cuirs alone are fine.

 

[isomittari]

I opened quickly your save. I've been wondering if there's a reason why you run GArtists in Karakorum? You should replace them by GS since you already have 2 free scientists.

This was actually done to diversify my GP pool - as I want to run many GA's in a row, I want to have different types of GP for that. But you are right maybe I should just run GS's.

Same with other cities some of them can run merchants instead of working water tiles for example. You could get a GM to do trade missions and this would solve your gold issue.

Great tip, thanks! I actually did run Merchants in Agra for a GM but I used it for another GA. I will most certainly try this in the future.

 

[Gasp]

I understand your GA chain, I didn't look in detail or read all your plan but it seems to me that you can probably use a GS on time to bulb Edu and a GM for a trade mission. This will speed your game and probably allow you to research at 100% until the end of the game. Next Taj and GS+GM could do your GAs for a change of civics and strong unit production.
Now you may have another fine plan you want to stick to

 

[isomittari]

Plan for this turnset:
* Research Paper (bulb) -> Nationalism -> Education -> Lib -> MT -> Gunpowder
* Whip an army of Galleons, Cuirs and Trebs
* Finish the game by domination

Spoiler 142-217 :

T142: I meet Willem in the west. He is of course Hindu... but pretty behind in tech, maybe he has had some wars.
T143: Mr. Shaka, also Hindu. I OB with Willem.
T144: Gilgamesh, Hindu again.
T145: I do some trades with Gilgamesh, he is the top dog of this island, it seems.
T146: I trade CS + 75GP to Feud with Willem.
T147: I do some good trades with Willem.
T148: I also trade with Shaka and Gilgamesh. Shaka hates me. I get a GS in Karakorum, and decide to use it to bulb Paper.
T149: I pay Gil 95GP for Map. The 4th Civ on this big island is Sury.
T150: Willem gives me 100GP + Map for Literature.
T151: Nationalism is done, I start on Edu. I want to go the Lib route.
T152: I started building Taj in Agra. That GA would help my war effort greatly.
T153: Gil asks for Feudalism - I reject as I have decided to go for domination.
T154: I get ship bonus. Shaka builds the Colossus...
T156: I trade Ivory to 10GP with Sury. He gives me 60GP for Lit.
T157: Edu is done, I start on GP.
T158: Willem builds The Parthenon.
T160: I get another GS, and start a GA. I trade Paper + 115GP to Theo with Hatty. Willem gives me Engi for Music + Compass + 215GP.
T162: I send a small army to conquest the barb city on a small island.
T166: I get Lib and pick MT. I start on Chemistry. It is time to whip some Cuirs with Theo + Vassalage + Slavery.
T167: Taj is finished. I conquer Yayoi, the barb city.
T168: Sury builds the AP. This will slow down my war effort a little bit.
T172: I get a GA in Karakorum, and together with the GM I start another GA.
T172: I trade Clam to 3GP with Shaka. Chemistry done, I start on Steel.
T173: I trade Optics to Drama + 70GP with Hatty. I trade Pigs to Fur with Shaka. I OB with him, too.
T175: I DoW on Willem and try to take Rotterdam next turn. This cuts his access to Iron, too.
T176: Rotterdam has been captured.
T178: I take Amsterdam. A vote has been set to stop the war, so I will need a new target. I think I pick Shaka.
T179: Because of the peace treaty four of my Cuirs are stuck inside Amsterdam... but this shouldn't slow me down too much. I trade Nationalism to Guilds with Hatty.
T180: Gil vassals Willem, which means I will just declare on them both. This saves me some time, as I do not have to wait for the 10 turn peace treaty to wear off.
T181: SC failgold has arrived.
T182: I am waiting for Gil's army to approach, I also heal my wounded Cuirs. I'd rather take his army on the open battle field than in a city. The Dutch have three more cities left, and there is a small army in Utrecht.
T183: I get another GE and build a Cuirs Medic III.
T184: I see Gil's army, it is coming towards Amsterdam. Just a few knights, Catapults and Elephants.
T188: Willem is no more, and the war against Gil has been put to vote again. I take 140GP, 1GP per turn and a Map for peace and go for Sury next. I also get 12GP per turn for Corn from Gil.
T189: I DoW on Sury.
T191: Shaka is bringing troops close to our borders, he is definitely joining the war soon.
T192: Sury has capitulated.
T193: I switch to Free Speech and Pacifism.
T197: Shaka capitulates. He can be very resilient... I have become too powerful for Hatty to peace vassal. I will whip a small army to take her out, too.
T199: I DoW on Gil.
T217: Domination victory!

Analysis
This turnset was a mess. In the beginning things were going pretty well, but at some point I was just making stupid strategic choices and the war was just a mess. I just did not realize how much tougher the wars on Emperor were when compared to Prince/Monarch. I think I want to do another game on Emperor, as I still do some silly mistakes that would probably be game-changing on Immortal.

What I learned during this game:
1. City placement and specialization
2. LOTS of diplo stuff
3. Worker stealing and war planning
4. Economy
5. Avoiding over-building in cities
6. More about whipping mechanics
7. GP planning
8. Tech paths
9. Early planning of cities and production

 

[isomittari]

Settings: Fractal, difficulty is Emperor, no events, no huts
Leader: Pacal, EXP and FIN
Starting techs: Myst and Mining

Ball Court is a pretty effective way to fight unhappiness. Holkans are nice early units and do not require Copper. I don't know how useful immunity to first strikes is, though. I have not played Pacal before, actually, but
faster Workers and Granaries seem like a big deal and FIN is always nice.

Here is the start:

Spoiler :

Just SIP? SW would lose Corn and gain FP, does not make any sense... Move Warrior NW and if there is nothing extraordinary, just SIP I guess.

 

[elmurcis]

SIP looks good, work 3H plain hill for faster Worker
BTW - following with interest

 

[Anysense]

Yeah, SIP seems quite reasonable.

 

[isomittari]

Plan for this turnset:
* Settle in place
* Start with Agri
* Explore with Warrior

Spoiler 0- :

T0: Warrior moves west and reveals desert, plains and some river. Mutal has been found and starts building a Worker while working the forested PH. I start researching Agri.
T1: Warrior moves SW and reveals Ivory.
T2: I move on Ivory to check how that area west of Mutal is.
T3: I spot Silver and dry Rice.
T10: Agri is finished.

Spoiler Map :

Analysis
Short turnset, as there are some decisions to make. All in all, there are some nice helper city spots in the vicinity of Mutal.

Some issues to solve:

1. Technology - I feel like there are three options here: Fishing (is this a trap again?), AH to work the Cows (does not help other tiles unless there is Horses somewhere) and BW (chopping, possible Copper, allows Holkans together with Hunting). I am leaning towards Fishing as the lake can also be worked and Pacal is FIN.

2. City placement - I think my second city should be west of Mutal, but the placement might be a bit wrong. Maybe it could be SW to work that Ivory and eventually the dry Rice? I would still grab all of those FP's, but would lose fresh water. Third city depends on the land in the west and south, but maybe a helper that could work the Corn and later the Fish. This could actually maybe be 1E so it would not kill the forest. I already have Myst so chopping a Monument does not take long.

 

[Anysense]

Food and production first, commerce can wait. So its AH and then, probably, Fishing. Scouting has not revealed anything good so far, but with 4 food resources in the caital you want to share it anyway, in particular because you want to work clams and those can't be shared.
Sick of ivory in every game. At least there is no gold this time.

 

[Anysense]

Forgot to mention: there is a tile 3E2S of Mutal that can't be worked from your continent.

 

[dutchfire]

Sick of ivory in every game. At least there is no gold this time.

There is silver though!

 

[Anysense]

There is silver though!

Silver in tundra is tolerable.

 

[Lain]

Bronze Working first (then Fishing), I think. Otherwise worker does nothing for a long time. Chopping boats and whipping should also be better for production.

 

[isomittari]

Forgot to mention: there is a tile 3E2S of Mutal that can't be worked from your continent.

Haha I finally noticed this myself, too! Now I can plan accordingly.

Plan for this turnset:
* Research AH
* Explore some more of SW area

Spoiler 10-23 :

T12: Worker is done, and I start working the dry Corn. I build Warriors in Mutal.
T17: Corn improved, I start building a mine on the PH. Hinduism has been found.
T19: Warrior gets WM1.
T22: I meet Brennus.
T23: I am a little bit late with the Worker to improve the Cows because I wanted to finish the mine so that I can work two improved tiles.

Spoiler Map :

Analysis
Basic stuff, AH is done and there are Horses in the north from Mutal. I was hoping for Brennus to have one of the early religions, but I guess there are even bigger zealots somewhere around. Haven't found his culture, yet. I like all these early happiness resources I am seeing, I mean Gold + Silver + Ivory already!

Some issues to solve:
1. Technology - I think I will go with BW here, as @Lain said. Otherwise my Worker will be unemployed for a looong time. After that Fishing.

2. City placement - I moved c1 1SW. This would allow me to eventually work 3FP, Ivory, loan the Cows from Mutal and also get that dry Rice. There is also a nice Pigs + Gold spot in the south (there's that gold for you, @Anysense!). Maybe even c3 could be settled first to get those nice Pigs and Gold?

3. Wonders - Maybe going for TGli would work in this game? There are some nice coastal spots, and if I find some more seafood it could be feasible option. If I take this route, maybe c1 could be on the desert?

4. Army and fogbusting - There's quite a lot of unknown and unused territory around me, I need to plan my fogbusting soon.

 

[Anysense]

I'm not sure about BW. Second city comes a few turns earlier than BW, so it won't really help to use more workerturns. Besides, it delays seafood by ~10 turns, although that might be not very important if you settle gold first. Yep, I don't like c1 at all. Its just too poor for a 2nd city, and you want it to be productive early on. You can't even improve ivory, need Hunting for that. On the other hand, pigs and gold are a bit too far away, but its fine if you can secure the area.

 

[isomittari]

Plan for this turnset:
* Research Fishing, and start with BW
* Build Warriors for fogbusting
* Settle second city with Pigs and Gold

Spoiler 23-45 :

T23: I actually switch the Warrior in Mutal to a Settler in order to avoid wasted turns with the Worker. This means that I will delay exploration a little and concentrate on fogbusting near my borders until the second city.
T29: Fishing is done, I start with BW.
T33: I meet KK again, he is coming from the west.
T36: Lakamha has been found SW of the Pigs.
T42: I want to build a WB in Mutal, after which I will start building Settlers and Workers.
T43: I find Brennus' culture not too far in the south.
T45: Another WB is done in Mutal, and next turn I can work Mutal with some nice tiles.

Spoiler Map :

Analysis
I wanted to play until BW, but it might have been a mistake. I feel like turns just flew by without me doing much of anything. I feel like my expansion plan is just way too slow, but maybe I can still step up with chops and by whipping. There is actually another nice spot with Pigs + Horses + Ivory far in the south.

Some issues to solve:
1. Technology - Finally I have some commerce for research with Gold and Clams. I have trouble deciding the next tech, though. Sailing would give me TR's between Mutal and Lakamha and probably soon with Brennus, too. Sailing -> Writing -> Alpha?
2. City placement - I honestly have no clue. Maybe just settle that Pigs city west of Lakamha? Pigs, Horses and Ivory in the first ring ain't so bad, and being FIN will help with upkeep.
3. Wonders - I am still thinking about chopping TGli in Mutal...
4. Army and fogbusting - I still need some Warriors to explore and fogbust.

 

[Lain]

1) I would suggest a standard Wheel-Pottery-Writing here. As that's the best approach for most games, really. Beelining Alpha and delaying worker techs can make sense... but those cases are really rare. Here you have great happy cap (silver+gold+ivory ... need roads for connection of course, hence wheel needed. Sailing won't help you. Also a great health cap and you are expansive -> cheap granaries. Not to mention financial cottages (although it's really about the granaries, mainly). Basically you can grow all cities close to size 10 in the near future. No way would I delay that any more than necessary just to save a few beakers by tech trading.

Useful rule of thumb: If there is no gold/gems available in your capital, basically forget about that Alpha beeline. Because crucial tech are being delayed for too long, more often than not. Here you had a rather low commerce start and delaying Pottery until 1000 BC+ is not advised.

2) Horses/pigs/ivory is a great spot and should be settled next if barb situation allows it (should be fine). The Wheel allows you to add a chariot soon. Switch into Slavery now, grow to size 6 and whip the settler for 3 pop as soon as possible. Worker stays in Mutal and does nothing else than chopping. I mean like 4-5 forests in a row, not stopping for anything. Workers, Settlers, Granary. New worker from Lakamha takes care of the 3rd city. Grow Lakamha to size 3 after that and whip another worker (1 pop). All just suggestions of course

3) Too early to worry about wonders I think. Anything is possible later.

4) I think warriors are fine for now, in about 10T you'll have a chariot if you want.

Most crucially, the best tech path here would have been: Agriculture, Bronze Working, Fishing, (Hunting), Animal Husbandry. I think delaying BW has slowed you down considerably. Would have made for a more explosive start.

Another useful rule of thumb: Never build workboats "normally", always chop them when possible.