acluewithout
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2017
- Messages
- 3,495
Jesus, I know this has been discussed before, but Anti-Cav really are just awful.
First, AC just don’t really do anything better than anyone else. Melee are great at attacking and taking Cities - with promotions, they’re fast and defend v ranged, and they can use Rams. Cav are great at pillaging, harassing, and (Heavy Cav) good at clearing units. Ranged are good at Defence and support; and Seige, for all their problems, can actually smash Walls and Naval units okay. But Anti-Cav aren’t particularly good at anything - yes, they’re good v Cavalry, but so are Melee and other Cav; they’re no better at Defence than anyone else; and they’re otherwise terrible at attacking, raiding, whatever because they are slow and vulnerable v ranged.
Second, I know @Sostratus has discussed this at length, but the Combat Strength of AC v other units is just Wacky. Spears, which come later than Warriors, get smashed by Warriors (CS 25 v 20+10). Pikemen, that come an era after Swordsmen, get completely smashed by Swords (CS 41 v 36+10). That’s nuts. I mean, it gets slightly better after you get the Thrust promotion, but then it’s still pretty bad because Melee can get +7CS for all attacks on their first promotion too [0] (eg Pike v Swords becomes 41+10 v 36+10 +7, still +2 worse than Swords).
Third, AC also have to deal with no defence v Ranged! And it’s on top of Spears etc being a units your more likely to be hard building, given you start the game able to build Melee and Ranged units but not Anti-Cav.
After the last Patch, I honestly think Anti-Cav units are about the only major gameplay mechanic in the game that’s really still “broken” or “doesn’t work”. And AC really, really don’t work.
I mean, I guess you can build a couple for Eurekas or to help with Cavalry or to boost City Defence or because you’re just desperate (but seriously, if you don’t have resources, just build Warriors, Chariots and Cross Bows). But that’s not hugely attractive. It's a pity too, because building Spearmen Phalanx and Pikemen Armies could be a really big fun part of the game, and having a good go-to No Resource unit might make people feel better about not having Iron or Niter or whatever.
I don’t think AC is something Firaxis can fix just by tweaking a few numbers or making them cheaper (they've tried and it hasn't worked). AC really are quite broken - fundamentally broken - and they really need a complete rethink, either to find them a new “niche” (like being actually better at defence) or to completely rebalance them v Melee. If we get a 3XP, maybe Firaxis could really overhaul the whole unit triangle thingy ... although maybe that's too big of an ask...
Sorry. Anti-Cav just came up in a Reddit Thread, and I just got looking at the numbers again, and just couldn’t believe it was still so bad. If you feel like you’ve read enough Spearmen threads then I totally understand - just click the back button!
[0] Pretty sure Battlecry applies v Anti-Cav, but shout out if I’m wrong.
Moderator Action: Fixed your title. leif
First, AC just don’t really do anything better than anyone else. Melee are great at attacking and taking Cities - with promotions, they’re fast and defend v ranged, and they can use Rams. Cav are great at pillaging, harassing, and (Heavy Cav) good at clearing units. Ranged are good at Defence and support; and Seige, for all their problems, can actually smash Walls and Naval units okay. But Anti-Cav aren’t particularly good at anything - yes, they’re good v Cavalry, but so are Melee and other Cav; they’re no better at Defence than anyone else; and they’re otherwise terrible at attacking, raiding, whatever because they are slow and vulnerable v ranged.
Second, I know @Sostratus has discussed this at length, but the Combat Strength of AC v other units is just Wacky. Spears, which come later than Warriors, get smashed by Warriors (CS 25 v 20+10). Pikemen, that come an era after Swordsmen, get completely smashed by Swords (CS 41 v 36+10). That’s nuts. I mean, it gets slightly better after you get the Thrust promotion, but then it’s still pretty bad because Melee can get +7CS for all attacks on their first promotion too [0] (eg Pike v Swords becomes 41+10 v 36+10 +7, still +2 worse than Swords).
Third, AC also have to deal with no defence v Ranged! And it’s on top of Spears etc being a units your more likely to be hard building, given you start the game able to build Melee and Ranged units but not Anti-Cav.
After the last Patch, I honestly think Anti-Cav units are about the only major gameplay mechanic in the game that’s really still “broken” or “doesn’t work”. And AC really, really don’t work.
I mean, I guess you can build a couple for Eurekas or to help with Cavalry or to boost City Defence or because you’re just desperate (but seriously, if you don’t have resources, just build Warriors, Chariots and Cross Bows). But that’s not hugely attractive. It's a pity too, because building Spearmen Phalanx and Pikemen Armies could be a really big fun part of the game, and having a good go-to No Resource unit might make people feel better about not having Iron or Niter or whatever.
I don’t think AC is something Firaxis can fix just by tweaking a few numbers or making them cheaper (they've tried and it hasn't worked). AC really are quite broken - fundamentally broken - and they really need a complete rethink, either to find them a new “niche” (like being actually better at defence) or to completely rebalance them v Melee. If we get a 3XP, maybe Firaxis could really overhaul the whole unit triangle thingy ... although maybe that's too big of an ask...
Sorry. Anti-Cav just came up in a Reddit Thread, and I just got looking at the numbers again, and just couldn’t believe it was still so bad. If you feel like you’ve read enough Spearmen threads then I totally understand - just click the back button!
[0] Pretty sure Battlecry applies v Anti-Cav, but shout out if I’m wrong.
Moderator Action: Fixed your title. leif
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