[GS] OMG, Anti-Cav are still (really) Broken!

But Anti-Cav aren’t particularly good at anything - yes, they’re good v Cavalry, but so are Melee and other Cav; they’re no better at Defence than anyone else; and they’re otherwise terrible at attacking, raiding, whatever because they are slow and vulnerable v ranged.

Anticav are decent. Are they amazing? No, not by themselves, but when you build them, place them on defensive terrain and provide flanking bonuses, they do kill cavalry. They are best in teams supporting other infantry. They shouldn't be raiders, and are effective in combined arms on the offense (but of course better on the defense). And their promotions are very good. They are also the resourceless unit.

Of course they are vulnerable to ranged units - as slow melee units should be, which is why there are fast units to take them out.

I do agree that they could be balanced a little better, but they aren't absolutely awful. And I agree with Victoria that Hoplites rock.
 
I think Hoplites used together are better than Warriors and maybe this is what is supposed to separate the Greeks from everyone else.
Spears are best if an opponent is intent on using cavalry and are not the blunt instrument melee and heavy cavalry are.
but still you have to develop two technologies in order to hard build a unit that is weaker and more expensive than the one you get at the beginning of the game. why? by then, your warriors are probably upgraded and will be the base of your units through the game.

but say there's a base anti-cav, at the beginning of the game. Maybe it's cheaper but worse than the warrior. I'd probably make a few and upgrade like you currently do with sling>>archer.
 
but still you have to develop two technologies in order to hard build a unit that is weaker and more expensive than the one you get at the beginning of the game. why? by then, your warriors are probably upgraded and will be the base of your units through the game.
Because I need to counter heavy chariots, which occur before swords. Scouting and visibility would tell me how many to make but making just a couple is always a good plan. Iron weapons will cost gold to upgrade and possibly buy the tile the iron is sitting on so doing a convenient mass upgrade is not always possible, but yes it's much nicer to have if you're allowed.
 
Spears are good at stabbing cities though.

Sometimes when you do a warrior/archer rush, the city strength is a bit too high when they have chariots; you can use spears to bring it down. Same goes with pikes if you lack iron. In fact, if your swords push fails, you can follow up with pikes to try and take cities. It's actually not that unreasonable to rush mil tactics. Everyone should do a Oligarchy Impi meme push once in a while!

But then again you're better off going crossbows....
 
To add on to the excellent points, I also think part of the issue is WHERE on the tech tree they appear. Some of them appear at awkward places; the time when Pikemen were on the dead-end line, I'd almost never research that tech unless I want to build the Huey.

If you never research a tech because you need the Anti-Cavalry unit it holds, then we have a problem. The same way you'd rush to upgrade to crossbows, bombads, or tanks, we need to have an incentive to get Anti-Cav units.

You don't get AC units at the beginning, and they always tend to appear on the side of the tech tree which you're not really looking to beeline at the moment, perhaps apart from Bronze-Working. And their weakness compounds the issue. Why would you build Spearmen when the warrior you started with has been clearing Spearmen from barbarian camps and is probably on the 2nd/3rd promotion now?
 
Why would you build Spearmen when the warrior you started with has been clearing Spearmen from barbarian camps and is probably on the 2nd/3rd promotion now?
What is the alternative? Building nothing and waiting to upgrade the warriors to swords? I would still build a couple spears but nothing overboard unless I'm beset by cavalry.
 
i only built AC units for city state quests
i really dont see any point to them with the limit of 1UPT.
maybe if you could attach them to melee units like a support unit to buff their defence against cavalary units or maybe as suggested to have them exert ZOC against CAV units.
i mean most of us ,i imagine , at one time do use extensive cavalary armies to raid someone into oblivion while getting rich. at the moment it is so easy because of no ZOC restrictions.
 
What is the alternative? Building nothing and waiting to upgrade the warriors to swords? I would still build a couple spears but nothing overboard unless I'm beset by cavalry.
Why, though? Warriors are cheaper and better in almost every aspect. So more warriors...
 
TLDR at bottom. My goal in these remarks are the most limited changes for the biggest impact. @acluewithout thou shall incur the price of mentioning me in a comment- a tsunami of text!

Anticav have, IMO, two distinct sets of problems.
In the first half of the game they are simply too weak.
In the second half of the game, cav are too strong.
The nature of civ games means that AC either won't be trained or will not survive into the midgame, rendering promotions moot.

I repeat this in every thread relating to unit classes but there appears to be very strong evidence of an intended progression of unit strength through the ages - namely, 25+10 per era past the ancient. Some classes, like heavy cav, are stronger, the ranged class is nigh universally -5 ranged from this target and -10 melee from their ranged str. Etc etc. Keep this in mind when reading the following...

Section I: the Weakness of Spears & Pikes
When we say anticav, most people are thinking of spearmen and pikemen.
Pretty much everyone agrees these units are not very impactful.

Spearmen and Pikes actually suck for different reasons. Because of civ6's every-other-era upgrade scheme, where in any given era some classes are more "advanced" and some are lagging behind, and then it generally reverses the next era - at some point, the game has to start. This means out of the gate, some classes will beat others. Many people point out that warriors beat spears 1v1 and in cost. Not great!
But, the ancient era is either warrior rush or barb defense. You usually make the classical before true large scale wars can start... At which point, you're dealing with swords and horses. Spears are an ancient unit that has to fight on a classical field. This means they will get slaughtered. The designers actually seem to have consciously adjusted archers from 20:c5rangedstrength: to 25:c5rangedstrength: to account for the lack of a classical upgrade. Spears function well in a world warriors-spears-heavy chariots. In fact, let's look at spears v chariots for a second: both cost 65, spears beat chariots by +7 but chariots generally have the strength and move advantage. No one has ever complained that spears are ineffective vs chariots. We will come back to this point.

If we change nothing else, spears should be boosted to 30:c5strength:. This is the same treatment that archers get, and its to recognize that the classical is a scary place for ancient units. There is no "pre-historic era" where people plod around on 15:c5strength: donkeys for spears to have an advantage over. We must recognize that the upgrade system is discrete and it has a serious breakdown at the very start. Spears would fight warriors at parity, get decent trades against archers, beat horsemen, and still lose badly to swords.

While spears match the strength template and I suggest should be boosted because of the early game dynamic, Pikes don't match the template: they should be strength 45, but inexplicably got 41. They then molded a bunch of military tactics UUs on pikes, made them also 41:c5strength: 180:c5production:ish, realized those unique units were hot garbage, and buffed them to about 45:c5strength: 160:c5production:, but left pikes alone. Imagine for a minute what Pikes at 45 would mean. it would mean that they beat knights by +7, just like spears v chariots. They still lose to swords by +1, and swords cost half of a pike. So you have a very viable counter right there. Plus you have Xbows, which hit pikes for -5, a very normal tradeoff in every other era. I can assure you things would be balanced. How can I say this with confidence?

Because in the next era, which I believe is the only long term solution to melee/anticav dichotomy, Muskets and Pike&Shot are both 55:c5strength: and cost 240/250. Muskets have an advantage over P&S, who themselves beat back mounted units and hit everything else the same. In fact, P&S can stand up to Cuirassiers, while musket's can't. But for the same 20 niter, a musket will beat a P&S! Wonderful balance. Also, field cannons take both these footmen to pound town, but such is the life of not having Riflemen. No one complains that P&S are bad units. The only complaint I've ever seen is AC don't survive long enough to have promoted units to upgrade into P&S.

Section II: the dominance of Tanks
Once we leave the early game, we run into a different issue entirely. We see it in Spears v Horsemen, too: Anticav doesn't actually beat Mounted in combat. At crews and Modern AT tie their armored counterparts, while being minimally cheaper. In a civ game, sure, a hypothetical 20% cost differential would matter over time, but the fact that there are only so many units on the board means that if I can kill some of yours, i have an advantage even if you have long term economics. This isn't a Total War game. So, what should be done here? Well, for starters, infantry+AT crews are unreasonably weak units; they should be 75:c5strength:, not 70. I think that the paucity of unit upgrades on release caused some interesting balance choices, but now we aren't as constrained. They actually buffed mech. Infantry from 80 to 85 right away, iirc, and the same should be done for Modern AT. It's a very noticeable pit in the unit strength graphs. Then, AC will have +5 on tank types, lose -10 to infantry, balanced, <InsertThanosMeme.>

This issue is entirely swept under the rug because spears are so bad in the classical that no one builds them; this in turn compounds to a lack of AC in general, so these units are not noticed. It's easy to think AC actually counters cavalry, but at many stages of the game they don't: AT crew vs Tank is so skewed that even if those were the only two units you'd be saying "a 20% increase in price for +2:c5moves: movement is a balanced trade." Adding in other units only favors the tank more (because it stomps them while AT suffers.) Repeat exactly for Modern Armor/AT, except Mech Inf crush AT even harder.

Conclusion
While a +10 modifier attached to a unit class is not inherently imbalanced, several Anticavalry units are below trend for strength. By fixing this in 3 instances (Pikemen; AT crew; Modern AT, plus Infantry) we can ameliorate the mid-late game disadvantage AC units have. While Spearman are right on trend, we note that they must fight in 2 eras; thus, in line with Archers, it is proposed that they also see a +5:c5strength: strength increase.
TLDR, 4 targeted strength adjustments would allow AC units to have consistent, balanced matchups and be able to demonstrate a viable threat to contemporary mounted units. This does not adjust any other unit class design choices; rather it preserves the original game design.
 
Why, though? Warriors are cheaper and better in almost every aspect. So more warriors...
That's what I was wondering, and if you have the gold and iron to upgrade them and a great general they probably are.
I will still build them for variety over warriors, for the better base strength, and the anti-cav.
 
That's what I was wondering, and if you have the gold and iron to upgrade them and a great general they probably are.
I will still build them for variety over warriors, for the better base strength, and the anti-cav.
it's very unfortunate that swords individually fight horseman better than spears do.
Once you're in the classical you're almost better having a core of swords/horses (which you were going to have anyways) and then putting any extra :c5production: into archers, which almost the same as spears and are very useful generally.
Swords come literally one tech after spears, so in the time you would train spears, i could train warriors to upgrade instead and have units that hit you for +21 (aka, i don't need a lot of them to murder you)
 
AT crew vs Tank is so skewed
AC have a very useful lvl 4 promotion against tanks. AT crew are in fact support troops, not front line and it is a shame it is the lvl 4 promotion that gives this rather than +3 per level. It also would encourage more combined arms.
 
So I was out hiking in the woods this afternoon; and came to this out-of-the-box idea that probably isn't that good or developed, but it's interesting (at least to me)

Spearman
available at animal husbandry
15 str, 30 cost
+30% production, +1 promotion level (or maybe +%experience) if trained in a city with a hunting camp improvement
+1 builder charge for camps only

"Phalanx"
current spearman only with different graphic
+production and experience with copper mine

Pikeman
+ with lumber mill (eh)

Basically, if you get lucky you'd have more and cheaper units even though they're still outclassed by melee. Of course it wouldn't play well with Hoplite for one thing. But I like that they developed from hunting and that you'd get an early start on the upgrade path.
 
AC have a very useful lvl 4 promotion against tanks. AT crew are in fact support troops, not front line and it is a shame it is the lvl 4 promotion that gives this rather than +3 per level. It also would encourage more combined arms.
They do have decent promotions in their tree, but they just won't survive long enough: the AI loves melee units, and AC doesn't have the tortoise promotion - so they get shredded by ranged fire. Yes, i know people can win deity without losing a single unit, but in general people lose units and AC isn't long for the world. And the worst part about Hold the Line is it helps other units, just not the Anticav themselves. Promoted to obsolescence :lol:
 
They are also the resourceless unit.
Okay, one last nitpick: the balance between the costs of units isn't very fine tuned, so you end up with AC that costs almost exactly what melee costs.
Examples: pikes vs other military tactics UUs (180:c5production: pike vs 160:c5production: melee)
Pike & Shot vs Musketman (250:c5production: vs 240:c5production: melee)
At Crew vs Infantry (400:c5production: vs 430:c5production: melee)
Modern AT vs Mech Infantry (580:c5production: vs 650:c5production: melee)
So it's either pricier than units it loses too, or in the modern world the difference is extremely small (7% for At crew, about 10% for modern AT.)
Because that often equates to a turn or less of build time when they are cheaper, the actual gating factor is possessing the strategic resource. But those resources aren't something you're investing economic resources in - you are simply getting them for having a mine or oil well, so it's a very binary choice dictate solely by having the resource in the first place. Exception being P&S in the industrial era fighting of cav/cuirs but pretty much the rest of the time, just building your own melee or heavy cav is practically as production efficient. Tanks should be about 600-650:c5production: if they were going to be balanced just for their strength alone.
 
I don't understand the whole discussion point here. The main point of AC units is - they don't require any resources. So they just can't be as strong as melee or cavalry units, or resources would be much less important. And this difference should be significant enough to play its role in any circumstances.
 
But among resourceless units, a crossbow or an archer is almost always better. Archers cost the same, and they have the same attack power, but archers can attack without retaliation and from far away.

Anticav should have a +15 to ranged defense. Make them both anticav and anti archer.
 
Top Bottom