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OMG I'm addicted to Philosophical leaders

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by sabo, Jan 22, 2010.

  1. Kawalimus

    Kawalimus Warlord

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    Mar 13, 2008
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    Location:
    Baltimore, Maryland, USA
    I love philosophical early so I can get out some GPs to fund my early wars(and supply VERY useful hammers). Makes wiping out Shaka or Monty that much easier when you can afford a bigger army(and build it quicker) and a longer war.
     
  2. Still_Asleep

    Still_Asleep Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2006
    Messages:
    152
    Location:
    Vienna, Austria
    Playing random leaders on immortal:

    1.) Organized - Like playing in easy mode, and doesnt require a special strategy to be good. + lots of cheap buildings
    2.) Charismatic - extra happiness is big in earlygame, and cheap promotions helps in wartimes and easily unlocks heroic epic/west point.
    3.) Financial - it is good, but you have to spam cottages. Clearly worse than organized for me
    4.) Creative - best early civic, saves so much time and you can build every city in the perfect spot without worrying about that first border pop. Cheap libraries rock too. Completely useless later.
    5.) Expansive - 2nd best early civic, and the extra health helps in the industrious era too.
    6.) Spiritual - lost some of its former power due to the improved golden ages, but the flexibility is so good
    7.) Industrious - I am not a wonderspammer, but I like the bonus on national wonders and cheap forges
    8.) Aggressive - cheap barracks and free combat I are great for early action, and free combat I on gunpowder units is great in lategame as well. I would rate it higher if it wasnt that much worse than charismatic.
    9.) Philosophical - Once I have a GP-farm with massspecialists + national epic, those extra 100% dont make that much of a difference at all for me. And I am just bad at using specialist economies. But most importantly, this civic does absolutely nothing in the first 100 turns of the average epic-speed game I play. So slow. And I usually have the right GP at the right time with a little planning ahead without being philosophical.
    10.) Protective - Helpful if diplomatics failed and you are facing a surprise attack, and it is much easier to hold newly captured cities. Other than that it does nothing.
    11.) Imperialistic - I always wonder why the 2 best AIs (Justinian and Catherine) both have this trait. Cheap settlers are good, but how many are you building in your average game? The extra warlords are hardly feelable too. No cheap buildings. This trait is missing something.


    I wanna add that it is the trait-combo that makes a leader good or bad for me, not a single trait. Best leaders for me are the ones with 1 economic trait and 1 trait that accelerates the early game.
     
  3. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    25,910
    Settlers are very expensive, you can easily save comparable hammers to other traits on some maps, and you save them earlier when they count most.

    The GG boost is not always immaterial. I've had enough games where I start wars late and wind up with 4-6 great generals in that one war, which then add 50% production in a lot of my cities (or get stacked up in the HE city).
     
  4. karadoc

    karadoc AI programmer

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2005
    Messages:
    1,568
    Location:
    Australia
    Financial and organized are both quite powerful, but I find them a bit boring; they essentially just amount to some extra gold. I'm not a great fan of philosophical because I feel like it ties me down to a particular sort of strategy.

    My favourite traits are spiritual and charismatic. The extra happiness of charismatic is very helpful early in the game, and I enjoy having the highly promoted units that it will give me later. As for spiritual... well, being able to switch civics easily is very powerful. I often switch back and forth between organised religion and theocracy, in sync with my cities having a cities a building phase and a military phase. At the start of a war it's good to be able to switch to Nationhood at the drop of a hat to quickly get some troops out when they are most needed. And it's sometimes handy to switch to bureaucracy just for a little while to speed up an important great wonder. -- Faster temples is a handy bonus as well, particularly if you have UoS or SM.
     
  5. ilikepies

    ilikepies Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2007
    Messages:
    247
    I'd say mine are:

    1. Creative (I just like culture)
    2. Financial (It's awesome)
    3. Philosophical (see above)
    4. Organized (Great building bonuses and easy civics)
    5. Imperialistic
    6. Industrious
    7. Expansive.
    8. Spiritual
    9. Charismatic (I just don't play Charismatic leaders much)
    10. Aggressive (shoot me)
    11. Protective

    However, in terms of sheer power I'd say that in general Financial is probably the best, followed closely by Organized. Of course it all depends on your civ and strategy. Creative is great but definetely can be missed later on in the game and is only useful for some civs. Philosophical is very good but only fits with some leaders and is very centered on economy.
     
  6. mtr12

    mtr12 Prince

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2008
    Messages:
    596
    I never run a dedicated Specialist Economy. Even with a Philosophical leader, I only run 2 or so GP farms, and cottage the rest of my non-production cities, Financial or not. Therefore, I'm not really a fan of Philosophical.

    I've got a bit of an addiction to Spiritual, but that's fine. Everyone loves certain traits, but we all get over our addictions on our own in the end, so don't worry about a Philosophical addiction. Just don't become hooked on Julius or Augustus Caesar, because that's a bit harder to break.
     
  7. sherbz

    sherbz Emperor

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
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    1,726
    Location:
    London
    The real benefit, IMO, of a specialist economy, is that you dont waste any hammers on things like markets, grocers and other such things. Most of your empire will be running specialists, so you need minimal buildings (often just librraies suffice) and thats it. You only need the multipliers in a few cities, often not more than 3 of them (not forges though, these tend to become more desireable in an SE because of the happy cap and the fact that your cities will tend to be more hammer happy). Also, whipping is much much more powerful in an SE. Because you dont need to waste turns maturing cottages. I find elizabeth to be the best leader. Because you can run an SE early game and then switch to cottages late game (emancipation) once you have enough land to garuntee your victory. Having said that, i have had ridiclious ammounts of beakers per turn running pure SE. thats only with a PHILO leader though.
     
  8. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Cottages? Building wealth? Merchants not boosted by a market? Or are you building markets in those 3 cities?

    You will need 6 lib/uni for oxford. Forges are good builds too. After that, units? Wealth?
    Whipping is stronger in cities that are farmed. Running a FHWAGAD economy won't make the whip magically stronger.

    You know, PHI adds to GPP, not BPT. If you're settling it makes your opening faster if you're under rep, but not a great deal so. If you're bulbing the effects can be dramatic, but that doesn't really show up in BPT.

    Keep in mind that most cities don't need more than granary/forge/courthouse, plus whatever is needed for national wonders (libraries are cheap and often worth it as a result also). What really makes an empire is the decisions on what to tech and build at the moment, not a ASLDKFJALKJ E.
     
  9. Iranon

    Iranon Deity Whipping Boy

    Joined:
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    Location:
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    The number of additional GP you will spawn thanks to PHI doesn't depend too much on your economy type because GPP have rapidly diminishing returns - it's vey easy to be 3 GP ahead over the course of a game with an economy that has 1 GP farm and nothing else, and it'll be a long time until you are ahead by more even in a dedicated specialist economy (and if you have the Parthenon or run Pacifism, this will devalue PHI).

    PHI isn't a 'big picture' economy trait, its usefulness depends more on a) how quickly you start getting the first few b) how crucial getting the first few GP is. If you want some elaborate gambit to snatch something amazing with the Oracle or abuse your economy in the knowledge that you can easily equalise with a few well-placed bulbs it shines.
    If you don't have a definite bulb plan, picking up the first few Great People for settling/academies is good anyway; you'll simply do this for a little longer (more precisely: for around the same time but get more GP during this phase).

    Incidentally... whipping usually doesn't depend too much on farms vs. cottages either. A reasonable food surplus to grow to your cap quickly is desirable anyway, and to whip for 2 every 10 rounds you only need a food surplus of 4 until double digit city sizes (when whipping starts to lose some of its appeal). I find it most useful if I have many food-neutral but unexciting tiles... e.g. coast in island cities, grassland forests when I have a reason to not cut them down (yet).
     
  10. Saintsfan31

    Saintsfan31 Chieftain

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    Jan 24, 2010
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    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    My favorite traits are PHI FIN and ORG and i dont like the PRO traits so i mostly play as Washington but sometimes Alexander
     
  11. AveiMil

    AveiMil Prince

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    With PHI it's easier to bulb Philosophy AND Machinery allowing you to snag other techs as well.
     
  12. kochman

    kochman Deity

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    How is it easier to bulb Philosophy? There is no chance involved with what you can bulb, its all set up already.
     
  13. Silu

    Silu Deity

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    There is, however, a 0% chance to bulb anything if you don't have a great person for it. I hear PHI helps with that ;)
     
  14. AveiMil

    AveiMil Prince

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    Did you catch the logical operator AND in my statement?
     
  15. kochman

    kochman Deity

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    It was just a poor statement.
    Kind of irrelevant. If those two are the ones you want to bulb, you can just save up Great People until they are available.
     
  16. AveiMil

    AveiMil Prince

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    Getting both bulbed earlier is clearly an advantage.

    Getting Machinery bulbed 30 turns earlier with PHI is clearly a good military advantage. It also means an earlier Academy.
     
  17. kochman

    kochman Deity

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    My point is, PHI doesn't bulb. Sure, you get more GP in general. Everyone knows that.

    That is irrelevant to the specific bulbs you are referring to though, or any specific bulbing for that matter. If you have your heart set on specific bulbs, you can save those two great people until the right moment(s), then bulb as you desire. You don't have to be PHI to get these.
    Being PHI doesn't make it any easier to bulb a specific trait beyond the obvious point that you get more great people.

    So, if it was just a statement of the obvious, that's fine. I just didn't want you to think, or anyone reading your post to think, that somehow it literally made it easier to bulb specific things.
     
  18. AveiMil

    AveiMil Prince

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    You seem to be arguing semantics by stating the obvious and objecting to the fact that I was stating the obvious in the same context. Blurgh?!

    Obviously you don't have to be PHI so bulb any tech, so no it's not "easier" (unless easier only means takes less turns) to bulb a spesific tech.

    You can have your first three great people out within 49 turns with a simple library running two scientists if your trait is PHI. This allows for early Philo and Machinery bulb in addition to an early Academy for instance yet the same feat will require 100 turns if you're not running PHI. Getting these things early is the strength of PHI as I see it. Past National Epic/Pacifism and with the right use of a Golden Age PHI is not so great anymore (though not bad either).
     
  19. kochman

    kochman Deity

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    The point was, everyone already knows that PHI gets you more GP, but thanks for reiterating it in a specific context.
    For the record, Pacifism gets your more GP too folks. Just in case, I thought I would mention it. It can make bulbing things simpler.
     

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