Omg!

[Danwood]

I've downloaded and started a new game with this mod.

At first, i had the impression it was the common "bloated mess" kind of mod, with missing civipedia text and strange new techs and units.

I've later realised the game is really improved preserving the vanilla feel and the balance, even with those new things added which seem to fill the gaps the vanilla game had, and not just add content for its own sake as i supposed.


Few questions still remain:

-I've noticed, at mongoose-eternity speed, (the only i've tried) there's a big gap in Tech cost between prehistoric and ancient-classical eras, the first ones are bloody-cheap, while the later ones bloody-expensive. I guess it is a balance decision, but for clarity i'm just reporting.

-What about the global warming? as you know vanilla GW is messed up, and some modpack even disable it and seem to be fine to do so, i don't. I love GW if properly implemented, which GW did you add? GW mod, GW from K-Mod or other?

-Will you complete civopedia missing stuff (tech descriprions etc)? If you want, i'm willing to help! I'm not native speaker, but my eng is quite fine (not in this topic maybe )

-Did you check the K-Mod? The author implemented very nice GW and AI/speed changes over BBAI/CAR.

-Please continue supporting this!

 

[LunarMongoose]

At first, i had the impression it was the common "bloated mess" kind of mod, with missing civipedia text and strange new techs and units.

You know, a long time ago I specifically wrote in the Download sticky description that my mod was NOT "a bloated mess", rofl...

I've later realised the game is really improved preserving the vanilla feel and the balance, even with those new things added which seem to fill the gaps the vanilla game had, and not just add content for its own sake as i supposed.

EXACTLY what I was going for.

-I've noticed, at mongoose-eternity speed, (the only i've tried) there's a big gap in Tech cost between prehistoric and ancient-classical eras, the first ones are bloody-cheap, while the later ones bloody-expensive. I guess it is a balance decision, but for clarity i'm just reporting.

Yep, by design. Wanted the Prehistoric era to be a prequel to the main game and not quite a full era, time-wise. If you check the first Ancient column you'll see costs do ramp up slightly gradually there.

-What about the global warming? as you know vanilla GW is messed up, and some modpack even disable it and seem to be fine to do so, i don't. I love GW if properly implemented, which GW did you add? GW mod, GW from K-Mod or other?

It's originally based on MinorAnnoyance's GW mod with some updates by Fuyu. In one of my more recent major versions, forget which off-hand but it's in the Version History sticky, I greatly expanded that. So as with many, MANY other in-game systems (ie almost all of them at this point), I'm using my own heavily-customized version. If you want you can check the mouseovers for the Combustion, Industrialism, and Ecology techs in the tech tree window to see some of my neat GW additions, but there's a bunch more under-the-hood stuff that's been done too.

-Will you complete civopedia missing stuff (tech descriprions etc)? If you want, i'm willing to help! I'm not native speaker, but my eng is quite fine (not in this topic maybe )

I'd like to. I'm very busy in real life at the moment, and desperately need to get the much-overdue next version out first. The text tag thing doesn't strike me as being all that important compared to stuff that actually affects gameplay, and so far I haven't run out of things to do on that front. For what it's worth I do try to fill in some text entries with each new release, but obviously it still has a ways to go.

-Did you check the K-Mod? The author implemented very nice GW and AI/speed changes over BBAI/CAR.

Not familiar with it, probably b/c I haven't looked around to see what anyone else has been doing in quite a while. The last two years I was using up huge amounts of time just with the stuff I already knew I wanted to improve or add to the mod. I'm *ALL FOR* AI improvements though - back in the day I was often one of the first to release new BBAI versions as part of a major mod - so yeah I'll definitely look into it when I have time.

-Please continue supporting this!

Thanks! Always glad to have support, really helps keeps me involved.

 

[Danwood]

Yep, by design. Wanted the Prehistoric era to be a prequel to the main game and not quite a full era, time-wise. If you check the first Ancient column you'll see costs do ramp up slightly gradually there.

That's what i was thinking as well, good to know for certain

It's originally based on MinorAnnoyance's GW mod with some updates by Fuyu. In one of my more recent major versions, forget which off-hand but it's in the Version History sticky, I greatly expanded that. So as with many, MANY other in-game systems (ie almost all of them at this point), I'm using my own heavily-customized version. If you want you can check the mouseovers for the Combustion, Industrialism, and Ecology techs in the tech tree window to see some of my neat GW additions, but there's a bunch more under-the-hood stuff that's been done too.

Immensely glad to hear that. MinorA. mod is really a great addition, and the fact you even improved that is just a amazing.

I'd like to. I'm very busy in real life at the moment, and desperately need to get the much-overdue next version out first. The text tag thing doesn't strike me as being all that important compared to stuff that actually affects gameplay, and so far I haven't run out of things to do on that front. For what it's worth I do try to fill in some text entries with each new release, but obviously it still has a ways to go.

Indeed, civi texts are just a minor thing, that we as "perfectionists" contemplate. The priority is the next version, and i cannot wait to try it out (but first i need to finish my actual game, which is enthrilling!). Just lemme know if you need help with the texts when you'll find the time to address them[/QUOTE]

Thanks! Always glad to have support, really helps keeps me involved.

This is the minimum i can do, your mod is really what i was looking for, we have the same taste about modding civ4

 

[LunarMongoose]

First of all, just quickly mentioning I'm FINALLY free to work on my mod update more-or-less full-time now. At least for the moment, lol.

But mainly, wanted to say I just found the K-Mod subforum, and from the description he's written I have to respond, "holy carp!". I wish someone had pointed his mod out to me sooner... It appears to have some very important work done in its code that I now need to scramble to pilfer and incorporate.

I was very sad when AIAndy stopped actively developing BetterAI, so this is quite exciting. Plus it also referenced some Afforess code (whom I also have not kept up with) I didn't know about, specifically breaking Open Borders into separate military and non-military agreements. Not sure yet if that's a good thing to do from a gameplay standpoint (Karadoc passed on it), but it obviously sounds good.

Anywho, it's looking more like it'll be version 4.1 rather than 4.0.2 as a result of this development, though I have to move quickly to get Rakete's new Africa map out. Stay tuned.

 

[AIAndy]

First of all, just quickly mentioning I'm FINALLY free to work on my mod update more-or-less full-time now. At least for the moment, lol.

But mainly, wanted to say I just found the K-Mod subforum, and from the description he's written I have to respond, "holy carp!". I wish someone had pointed his mod out to me sooner... It appears to have some very important work done in its code that I now need to scramble to pilfer and incorporate.

I was very sad when AIAndy stopped actively developing BetterAI, so this is quite exciting. Plus it also referenced some Afforess code (whom I also have not kept up with) I didn't know about, specifically breaking Open Borders into separate military and non-military agreements. Not sure yet if that's a good thing to do from a gameplay standpoint (Karadoc passed on it), but it obviously sounds good.

You are confusing me there. Despite the name I have never actually done any significant amount of AI work in Civ4. BetterAI was Jdog's work I think.
Afforess has quit Civ4 modding last year but the DLL has been inherited by C2C and there has been a lot of work on optimization, features and AI by Koshling and me.

 

[LunarMongoose]

You are confusing me there. Despite the name I have never actually done any significant amount of AI work in Civ4. BetterAI was Jdog's work I think.

See, this is what happens when I don't work on Civ4 for over half a year. I obviously meant JDog... sorry about that! Sigh.

(Also, I didn't know you read anything in here. )

 

[AIAndy]

See, this is what happens when I don't work on Civ4 for over half a year. I obviously meant JDog... sorry about that! Sigh.

(Also, I didn't know you read anything in here. )

I still play this mod in MP now and then so occasionally I read this forum.

 

[LunarMongoose]

I still play this mod in MP now and then so occasionally I read this forum.

Ah yes, I remember now! You were active here during the Early Rakete Epoch.

Just downloaded and ran C2C for the first time. Initial impressions:

* same huge (bloated) scale as RoM that I'm trying very hard to avoid
* lots of very cool new terrain I'll be looking to pilfer (particularly love Fossils, Salt Flats, Savannah even though Rakete was already having me add it, and Marsh and Swamp as a terrain / feature combo - terrific new cattail model!)
* the entire terrain graphics set seems to be of a new style I haven't seen before, though I think I still prefer the one I'm using for existing stuff
* the Aquatic Shield and Aquatic Anti-Air improvements are neat
* the Underwater Tunnel would be awesome if it has proper AI support (always missed that from Call to Power)
* the Castle System is awesome, though again, probably way too in-depth for MM
* the Spy System additions look promising but I'll have to dig into the subject more
* the Ruthless AI option sounds like something I need to steal right away
* the Fixed Borders system is neat, but would require a massive AI update (which may have already been done, I dunno yet), and seems a bit heavy on complexity for questionable gameplay gains
* the rest of the stuff in the C2C Concepts page didn't really interest me
* I see a number of things that look like they were adopted from MM, but no obvious main credits file in the mod folder, or Credits sticky in the subforum, so nowhere to mention this fact... Sucks

Quick question... Why does C2C have an Idle process, given that it also has Minor Wealth/Research/Culture processes that are ALSO available at the start, and do more? Why would anyone ever actually USE the Idle command in this case? (I ask because I'm conceding defeat and adding early proccesses in my new version, hehe.)

 

[AIAndy]

Ah yes, I remember now! You were active here during the Early Rakete Epoch.

Just downloaded and ran C2C for the first time. Initial impressions:

* same huge (bloated) scale as RoM that I'm trying very hard to avoid

More so, far more so. Definitely not something that fits to your mod.

* lots of very cool new terrain I'll be looking to pilfer (particularly love Fossils, Salt Flats, Savannah even though Rakete was already having me add it, and Marsh and Swamp as a terrain / feature combo - terrific new cattail model!)
* the entire terrain graphics set seems to be of a new style I haven't seen before, though I think I still prefer the one I'm using for existing stuff

Most of the assets are assembled from many different mods and mod components.

* the Aquatic Shield and Aquatic Anti-Air improvements are neat
* the Underwater Tunnel would be awesome if it has proper AI support (always missed that from Call to Power)

Unfortunately it does not yet. The problem is that it connects areas and the AI relies a lot on area IDs to know if it should use a transport or not to get from one to the other. That will need to be done properly at some time anyway as more plot type changing effects are added (which changes connectivity as well).

* the Castle System is awesome, though again, probably way too in-depth for MM
* the Spy System additions look promising but I'll have to dig into the subject more
* the Ruthless AI option sounds like something I need to steal right away
* the Fixed Borders system is neat, but would require a massive AI update (which may have already been done, I dunno yet), and seems a bit heavy on complexity for questionable gameplay gains
* the rest of the stuff in the C2C Concepts page didn't really interest me

I did not really mention C2C for its advertised concepts (many of which won't really fit in a mod like MongooseMod) but rather the behind the scene DLL features which range from savegame compatibility between versions over many performance and AI improvements (including a new pathing generator) to viewports (that is only a small subset of DLL features, there are many, many more).

* I see a number of things that look like they were adopted from MM, but no obvious main credits file in the mod folder, or Credits sticky in the subforum, so nowhere to mention this fact... Sucks

The credits are in the main thread (old, from before the subforum was added):
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7175018&postcount=7

Quick question... Why does C2C have an Idle process, given that it also has Minor Wealth/Research/Culture processes that are ALSO available at the start, and do more? Why would anyone ever actually USE the Idle command in this case? (I ask because I'm conceding defeat and adding early proccesses in my new version, hehe.)

I don't know but probably so you know where you have not selected something to build yet (unlike the minor processes that you might do on purpose).

 

[LunarMongoose]

Unfortunately it does not yet. The problem is that it connects areas and the AI relies a lot on area IDs to know if it should use a transport or not to get from one to the other. That will need to be done properly at some time anyway as more plot type changing effects are added (which changes connectivity as well).

Yep, as expected. I do hope that happens soon, as I'd LOVE to add that tunnel.

... Please pressure them to work on this.

I did not really mention C2C for its advertised concepts (many of which won't really fit in a mod like MongooseMod) but rather the behind the scene DLL features which range from savegame compatibility between versions over many performance and AI improvements (including a new pathing generator) to viewports (that is only a small subset of DLL features, there are many, many more).

I know. But it had been a really long time since I looked at the content side of any other big mods to see if there was anything of interest, so it was overdue. Plus it was faster and easier to do that than exhaustively work through the source code, hehe. Don't worry, I'm doing that too...

The credits are in the main thread (old, from before the subforum was added):
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7175018&postcount=7

lol... Kinda underwhelming compared to my Credits section... just saying. Thanks for pointing it out though.

I don't know but probably so you know where you have not selected something to build yet (unlike the minor processes that you might do on purpose).

Hmm, seems kinda left-eyebrow-raising to me... Anyway, gotta double check and see if espionage values in a process are supported by the existing AI code, since the vanilla game doesn't HAVE an Espionage process for some stupid reason. Btw I also have a small idea for spicing this up... which I'm sure will get stolen to fix C2C's silly Idle process.

 

[AIAndy]

Yep, as expected. I do hope that happens soon, as I'd LOVE to add that tunnel.

... Please pressure them to work on this.

Well, "them" will be either Koshling or me. Probably Koshling as it is more his area of expertise but there is still a lot of other things to work on so can't say when that will be done.

I know. But it had been a really long time since I looked at the content side of any other big mods to see if there was anything of interest, so it was overdue. Plus it was faster and easier to do that than exhaustively work through the source code, hehe. Don't worry, I'm doing that too...

I guess I should assemble a feature list of the DLL at some point.

lol... Kinda underwhelming compared to my Credits section... just saying. Thanks for pointing it out though.

Yeah, I agree. I doubt though that after all these years with so many different people working on it anyone still knows what exactly was done by whom.
A different display of the credits (though with no really different content) can be found here: http://www.moddb.com/mods/caveman2cosmos

Hmm, seems kinda left-eyebrow-raising to me... Anyway, gotta double check and see if espionage values in a process are supported by the existing AI code, since the vanilla game doesn't HAVE an Espionage process for some stupid reason. Btw I also have a small idea for spicing this up... which I'm sure will get stolen to fix C2C's silly Idle process.

That is how the CivFanatics community works and how we got where we are now
If we would have kept everything closed and jealously guarded, none of the bigger mods would be in existence.

 

[LunarMongoose]

Well, "them" will be either Koshling or me. Probably Koshling as it is more his area of expertise but there is still a lot of other things to work on so can't say when that will be done.

Well if either of you DO run out of things to do and get bored, I still badly want a robust Civic Exclusion System, too. Fuyu tried doing it a year ago, ran into some big AI problems, and gave up, and I still don't really know if the problems were insurmountable or not... Conceptually it doesn't SEEM like it'd be that bad. Oh well.

That is how the CivFanatics community works and how we got where we are now
If we would have kept everything closed and jealously guarded, none of the bigger mods would be in existence.

I love jealously guarding things though... I'm a petty, greedy, selfish, vindictive person. I have good qualities too which I figure weigh about the same, so I score myself right around neutral in the grand cosmic scheme.

I know it makes me a bad community member, but I've basically adopted the compromise position where I believe in sharing fixes, optimizations, improvements, things like that, plus all the XML and Python is shared automatically anyway, plus I keep my old SDK code shared from a legacy standpoint since it started out being shared (even though the link is broken at the moment)... But I do love having a few exclusive features, like my ocean storm generation code.

Speaking of ocean storms, 'bout to get a nice 10th-row seat for Sandy here in Boston... It's super-exciting.

p.s. - There was at least one project that kept its DLL code private 3-5 years ago, back when _it_ was the Big Mod du Jour: Total Realism. I remember feeling very jealous of their programmers at the time. I didn't mind, though - it felt like things were exactly the way they should be, and if I wanted to have those features in MY mod, I'd just have to figure out how to write similar code myself. It was strong motivation, and definitely improved my SDK abilities. Just saying.

 

[LunarMongoose]

Ahh screw it, there's ONLY 6 civic exclusions I ACTUALLY need to make... it's GOT to be possible to hardcode this.