On Failing To Build A Wonder

[Gidoza]

I'm sure that this must have been mentioned before by now - but I'd like to raise it nonetheless.

I think the punishment for failing to build a wonder is quite steep - especially in the early game. If someone else beats you to a wonder, then they get it, you don't: that's a pretty serious pitfall for you, especially if you really wanted/needed. But as if that wasn't enough, you lose all the production you invested (whether it be 15 turns, or a Great Engineer that just wasn't enough), and in return, we get a measley bunch of culture that saves a few turns in the early game, and maybe adds a single turn's culture in the late game. I don't know about you, but losing out on all those turns of production is deadly, and doesn't strike me as balanced at all.

Nor realistic. I mean, it's not as though singular wonders as displayed in civ are particularly realistic, anyways - how are the Mayans supposed to know that the Egyptians build the Pyramids in Egypt? Yes, everything and everyone is unique - nevertheless, the investment ought to account for something more than 63 culture. A 75% return on the production invested strikes me as neither unrealistic nor unreasonable, and the culture bonus can even stay: whoever got that wonder is going to get alot more out of their investment, anyways.

 

[Atlas627]

No risk, no fun. 75% of production means I might as well try for every wonder!

I agree that losing a wonder on the last turn or two is a little too devastating, at least early game. Perhaps an exponential scaling of culture received?

 

[Deadstarre]

I personally thought the bonus culture was a significant buff to vanilla- i don't see any issue with the current system- as GamerKG pointed out risk and reward is important here and we need both.

If any change were made, it'd have to be something akin to the system Civ 2 had in place where you'd get a global notification when a civ started construction of a wonder, and another notification when they were almost complete. It's harder flying in the complete dark about the situation, although as has been pointed out in separate threads there is currently a way/strategy to figure out what civs may be building the wonder youre looking at. I'll agree a more straightforward system of notification could be of some help... but i still don't think its really needed.

early game bonus the culture isn't that bad. late game the culture is useless, but then by the late game you don't need a compensation at all for missing out on a wonder- it's not like a little lost production is going to significantly affect your empire.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

I'm sure that this must have been mentioned before by now - but I'd like to raise it nonetheless.

I think the punishment for failing to build a wonder is quite steep - especially in the early game. If someone else beats you to a wonder, then they get it, you don't: that's a pretty serious pitfall for you, especially if you really wanted/needed. But as if that wasn't enough, you lose all the production you invested (whether it be 15 turns, or a Great Engineer that just wasn't enough), and in return, we get a measley bunch of culture that saves a few turns in the early game, and maybe adds a single turn's culture in the late game. I don't know about you, but losing out on all those turns of production is deadly, and doesn't strike me as balanced at all.

Nor realistic. I mean, it's not as though singular wonders as displayed in civ are particularly realistic, anyways - how are the Mayans supposed to know that the Egyptians build the Pyramids in Egypt? Yes, everything and everyone is unique - nevertheless, the investment ought to account for something more than 63 culture. A 75% return on the production invested strikes me as neither unrealistic nor unreasonable, and the culture bonus can even stay: whoever got that wonder is going to get alot more out of their investment, anyways.

Early on, when my production options are growth, units or a wonder I have no shot at, I'll already occasionally pick the wonder so that I get some extra culture. I feel like the amount of culture I get is actually quite powerful in those cases.

 

[Strigvir]

Nor realistic.

Civ5 isn't realistic.

 

[Gidoza]

Eh, there's a difference between risk + reward and this. Attempting to build a wonder shouldn't devastate a player: devastation is caused by being outsmarted, not bad luck or a game mechanic that punishes you twice for something you couldn't have known.

If any change were made, it'd have to be something akin to the system Civ 2 had in place where you'd get a global notification when a civ started construction of a wonder, and another notification when they were almost complete. It's harder flying in the complete dark about the situation, although as has been pointed out in separate threads there is currently a way/strategy to figure out what civs may be building the wonder youre looking at. I'll agree a more straightforward system of notification could be of some help... but i still don't think its really needed.

I think this is a good compromise. If you get global notifications because a wonder has been constructed, then a global notification that one has been started I think would be acceptable - it would enable one to have a meaningful choice as to whether the race is worth pursuing. Detecting Wonder skeletons is really a lame way of detecting something that should already be available under the circumstances.

 

[Atlas627]

Eh, there's a difference between risk + reward and this. Attempting to build a wonder shouldn't devastate a player: devastation is caused by being outsmarted, not bad luck or a game mechanic that punishes you twice for something you couldn't have known.

I'm not sure why you view losing a wonder race as luck or an unknown. You have many tools to assess the risk you are undertaking. You got outplayed by one of the other players that assessed the risk well and had lined themselves up to have a better shot at it.

 

[Deadstarre]

Detecting Wonder skeletons is really a lame way of detecting something

What do you mean by Wonder skeletons?

I'm not sure why you view losing a wonder race as luck or an unknown. You have many tools to assess the risk you are undertaking. You got outplayed by one of the other players that assessed the risk well and had lined themselves up to have a better shot at it.

Theres really just the one tool though right? which is looking at tech tree to find out if another civ has the tech or not- and you just naturally assume if someone does, they're probably working on the wonder already.

I personally dont even attempt a wonder unless 2 things happened 1) i got to the tech first and 2) i have a city available to build with great production potential. if both those conditions arent met, i assume i already lost it. UNLESS theres a player in the clear lead who i know is the one having that tech, and he's already built a bunch of wonders and i havn't- then his wonder penalty will be severe enough that i can still probly finish first. but thats not an often scenario.

 

[Takagi Hiro]

What do you mean by Wonder skeletons?

If you can see the player's capital, which is the likely spot for wonders to be built, if you look closely, you can see the wonder being constructed. The only case in which this doesn't seem to apply is the Great Wall... and of course wonders that were modded into the game.

 

[Gidoza]

I can`t say that the wonder penalty really impacts a wonder-builder severely enough, though. Fact of the matter is that wonders provide enough of a bonus by themselves to offset the penalty in its entirety. If there`s going to be a penalty for this sort of thing, it ought to be serious enough to actually discourage wonder construction other than the ones you really need.

As for knowledge of technologies - I`m actually opposed to even being aware of what technologies another civ has without the use of a spy. My ancient people are dumb. How do they know what techs another civ has?

In any case, I still haven`t heard a good reason why the beginning of a wonder can`t be announced: needing to go through nitty-gritty details like checking techs of another civ, only to be punished if you make an attempt at a wonder, just seems like a ridiculous concept to me. If wonders are going to be universally announced upon completion, let their beginnings be announced, too. Otherwise, it`s not really a race. A race only occurs if the parties are both aware of the competition.

 

[Takagi Hiro]

I can`t say that the wonder penalty really impacts a wonder-builder severely enough, though. Fact of the matter is that wonders provide enough of a bonus by themselves to offset the penalty in its entirety. If there`s going to be a penalty for this sort of thing, it ought to be serious enough to actually discourage wonder construction other than the ones you really need.

As for knowledge of technologies - I`m actually opposed to even being aware of what technologies another civ has without the use of a spy. My ancient people are dumb. How do they know what techs another civ has?

In any case, I still haven`t heard a good reason why the beginning of a wonder can`t be announced: needing to go through nitty-gritty details like checking techs of another civ, only to be punished if you make an attempt at a wonder, just seems like a ridiculous concept to me. If wonders are going to be universally announced upon completion, let their beginnings be announced, too. Otherwise, it`s not really a race. A race only occurs if the parties are both aware of the competition.

I do like this idea, but I'm not sure the AI would benefit nearly as much as the player would.

 

[Atlas627]

What do you mean by Wonder skeletons?



Theres really just the one tool though right? which is looking at tech tree to find out if another civ has the tech or not- and you just naturally assume if someone does, they're probably working on the wonder already.

Well as the other poster said, there are wonder skeletons, which I think are an excellent method as they encourage exploration and often embassy exchange. He/she's talking about the graphic on the terrain that shows the wonder being constructed.

You can also guess using tech, production, and overall turn timers. You can also see what other wonders have been produced to guess at tech levels. You can also guess that wonders are being produced by noting that none have been made in awhile or that most of them at the same tech level have been made. You can also guess at tech and production speeds by looking at Demographics. And not everyone tries for every wonder! Some wonders also have restrictions that decrease the risk, since not everyone can build them. You can put spies in their cities (this one is concrete). And as someone said, you can look at tech costs to determine that someone already researched them.

Plenty of hints. It certainly is not just luck.

 

[Deadstarre]

I do like this idea, but I'm not sure the AI would benefit nearly as much as the player would.

That was my assumption for why it was removed from the franchise as a feature. I went straight from Civ2 on PS1 to Civ 5 BNW though and that feature was definitely missed at first heh

 

[Funak]

If you don't want to lose hammers for missing a wonder, then don't build a wonder

 

[Strigvir]

If you don't want to lose hammers for missing a wonder, then don't build a wonder

B-butt I won't get the wonder bonus then!
I really don't see why you spend a turn on building at all, when GEs can get a guarantied pre-rennaisance wonder with zero turns investment.

 

[Funak]

B-butt I won't get the wonder bonus then!
I really don't see why you spend a turn on building at all, when GEs can get a guarantied pre-rennaisance wonder with zero turns investment.

I hardbuild wonders sometimes, I lose the races sometimes as well, that's just part of the game. If I'm in a situation where I can't afford to waste hammers I'm not going to try for a wonder, that would just be silly.


Although I would have no problem with the culture-return from missing wonders would increase in later eras, getting half a turns worth of culture when you miss a wonder by one turn feels pretty silly.

 

[Gidoza]

I hardbuild wonders sometimes, I lose the races sometimes as well, that's just part of the game. If I'm in a situation where I can't afford to waste hammers I'm not going to try for a wonder, that would just be silly.


Although I would have no problem with the culture-return from missing wonders would increase in later eras, getting half a turns worth of culture when you miss a wonder by one turn feels pretty silly.

Yes, it's somewhat underwhelming. Perhaps if we based the culture return not only on hammers invested, but also as a multiplier of current culture generation - and we can throw BNW's gold return on top of it as well, and then it'll still be underwhelming, but at least not brutal.

 

[Funak]

Yes, it's somewhat underwhelming. Perhaps if we based the culture return not only on hammers invested, but also as a multiplier of current culture generation - and we can throw BNW's gold return on top of it as well, and then it'll still be underwhelming, but at least not brutal.

Just scale the culture returned by era, and its done

 

[Gidoza]

Just scale the culture returned by era, and its done

I don't think this is good enough. The most brutal effects are the ones in the early game. Later game failing to build a wonder one can shrug it off because production is high enough to get on with life, EVEN though the payoff from failure really sucks. Early game, this kind of wasted time and production may amount to GG. Games ought to be decided by a broad span and spectrum of events, not a single failed project.

 

[Funak]

I don't think this is good enough. The most brutal effects are the ones in the early game. Later game failing to build a wonder one can shrug it off because production is high enough to get on with life, EVEN though the payoff from failure really sucks. Early game, this kind of wasted time and production may amount to GG. Games ought to be decided by a broad span and spectrum of events, not a single failed project.

Then don't build early wonder? getting 170 culture when your output is 5 per turn is completely fine.