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On indentured servants and criminals...

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - Age of Discovery II' started by Wheldrake, Apr 13, 2009.

  1. Wheldrake

    Wheldrake Chieftain

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    It's very frustrating having to drag round indentured servants and criminals for some huge number of turns (80? 100? not sure) before being able to do *anything* with them.

    - They are sub-par workers and take soooo long to improve just through work.
    - You can't educate them in schools.
    - You can't educate them in native villages.
    - You can't make them into soldiers or dragoons.
    - While you can make them into scouts, they are inferior scouts since they can't fight, they can't improve to seasoned scouts and they can't gain very many promotions through experience.

    I challenge the logic of preventing them from being armed as soldiers, especially the hardened criminals. Remember Mel Gibson in "The Patriot", recruiting the scum of the earth at Swamp Mission. He said, "These are exactly the sort of men we need."

    But simply from a gameplay standpoint, it's highly frustrating to use them under the current rules. So much so I am almost tempted to simply disband them; my only other solution is to create new cities for them to diddle around for a hundred turns until they get over being so insignificant. And what happens when you get some of them in the late game, when you can't wait a hundred turns for them to improve? What happens when you get loads of them, 2 per city, on declaring independence? Your war will be over, one way or another, long before you are able to convert them into soldiers.

    I suggest one of the following fixes:
    1) Remove the ban on them becoming soldiers or dragoons. Why shouldn't they be just as good at fighting as the next blokes?
    2) If you don't want to go down that road, why not shorten the time they have to spend working off their indenture? 30 or 40 turns should be more than enough to give the "feel" of indentured servitude.
    3) Or make it possible to train them in schools. You can already train converted natives nearly as fast as ordinary colonists.

    I'm sure I can't be the only one frustrated by the lack of effective tasks for indentured servants and criminals.

    Cheers, --- Wheldrake
     
  2. PiMan

    PiMan Chieftain

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    I thought it only was 40 turns.

    And they probably would be just as good at fighting, but I'm not going to trust a hardened criminal with a gun to defend my home.
     
  3. PrinzMyshkin

    PrinzMyshkin Chieftain

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    I give them tools... next time I remember to check what they do, they are usually expert pioneers...
     
  4. Akrux

    Akrux Chieftain

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    Using them as pioneers seems to work the best or me. They "graduate" to free colonists just about the time I need to train veteran soldiers in school. I do agree that is far too long a time to be indentured.

    I like the idea of indentured servants going to school for about 6-10 turns and graduating as free colonists. 10 turns in school is 20 food consumed or about 1/10 of a free colonist created from 200 food.

    On the topic of schools I would state again that graduating an expert statesman from a university in two or three turns is too fast. Six turns would be equal to a present day four year diploma. It would force players to build more schools which is a good thing. Right now my entire country can function smoothly on two universities.
     
  5. PrinzMyshkin

    PrinzMyshkin Chieftain

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    That's right. You need 2 unis. and 1 place to produce bells. ;)
     
  6. Aerion

    Aerion Chieftain

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    The current setting is 40 turns for an Indentured Servant and 80 turns for a Petty Criminal.

    My personal opinion is that those periods are too long. I've modded mine back to 20/40.

    I think criminals should be able to be turned into soldiers but not dragoons.

    I usually create one colony that I use just for criminals and servants. I send them all there and put them to work farming for food. When the become colonist, I send them either to a native village or to a colony to work or go to school.
     
  7. Niptium

    Niptium Chieftain

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    40 turns and 80 turns is at what speed ? Is this scalable depending on your speed (epic, marathon...) ?
     
  8. PrinzMyshkin

    PrinzMyshkin Chieftain

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    Think this is what it is at normal speed.
     
  9. Ariminio

    Ariminio Chieftain

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    They arent hardened criminals, just petty ones, its even in their name! And hey, they managed to defend Australia. :lol:
     
  10. PiMan

    PiMan Chieftain

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    Hardened petty criminals. Stole a penny, sent to jail, stole another penny, sent to the New World.
    And defend Australia from what? It was largely free people who expanded the British controlled areas of Australia, including ex-convicts after they served their seven years punishment. And Australia wasn't involved in any local wars until after federation, and well after convicts were no longer being sent here.
     
  11. PrinzMyshkin

    PrinzMyshkin Chieftain

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    I think Callipoli (or Gallipoli in the mispelled version of it...) was the first campaign, Australians fought with Australian -and not British- officers in command. Poor ANZAC fought brilliantly there. The forgotten heroes of a forgotten war, as the song says...

    Nuff said, no more waltzing Matilda... back to C4C. That's what I am saying, give them tools and let them become hardened first. ;)
     
  12. PiMan

    PiMan Chieftain

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    What do you mean, mispelled? The Turkish name for the area is Gelibolu, and the English name for the area is and long has been Gallipoli.
    It is also a little ironic that you misspelled 'mispelled'.
     
  13. Aerion

    Aerion Chieftain

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    This is what it is for Normal Speed. I've never played at another speed so I can't address the difference, if any.
     
  14. Wheldrake

    Wheldrake Chieftain

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    I think the real problem for me is when, on declaring independence, you get 2 extra indentured servants per city. In Vanilla, the idea is that if you've stockpiled enough weapons and horses, you can change all those new guys into soldiers or dragoons. Waiting another 40 or however many turns after declaring independence isn't really an option.

    And why not allow them to become fighting men? What logic is behind it?

    Cheers, --- Wheldrake
     
  15. PrinzMyshkin

    PrinzMyshkin Chieftain

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    In Greek:

    Καλλίπολη, or Καλλίπολις = Kallipoli, or Kallipolis

    Κάλλος = Good, Beautiful
    Poli, or Polis = City

    In Turkish: Gelibolu.

    So Gallipoli is a made-up word, between the Turkish and the Greek version.

    Apologies for spelling. Check it out here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallipoli

    I also find ironic the name Gallipoli, as it actually means beautiful city. The irony goes further, as the infamous "Suvla bay", where many troops got slaughtered, means spit, like the BBQ cooking spit... In Greek we often say, "I am gonna roast you on a spit" metaphorically for threatening someone. We actually use the word "Suvla"...

    Never go all men are free in AoD2. ;) Yes, you are 100% right! Bonus should become +2 FCs per city.
     
  16. Dale

    Dale Chieftain

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    Yeah I always found that totally f-ed up. You choose all men free and get INDENTURED servants????????

    Were they BLACK?

    That's gotta change!
     
  17. PrinzMyshkin

    PrinzMyshkin Chieftain

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    That will be awesome! :)
     
  18. Wheldrake

    Wheldrake Chieftain

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    I think it's obvious. In Vanilla, indentured servants don't have any in-game qualities that really respect their label. They are mis-named as "indentured servants", they should really be called "junior colonists", since they can really do everything a normal colonist can do, just with a small negative modifier for certain tasks.

    Since they are treated as "junior colonists", it probably made sense to the design team to have the bonus citizens you get on declaring independence be "junior colonists" since they were meant to represent young men joining the revolution as volunteers - fine as soldiers, fine as planters of various sorts, but unskilled in specialty occupations.

    The changes made to both indentured servants and criminals in AoD2 are mostly logical, and give them in-game qualities that in part reflect their labels, which is a good thing. The idea of requiring a time delay for them to convert to ordinary colonists is a clever way of making them act in the game kind of like they would logically act in real life, it's a plus on the simulation aspect of the game.

    I'm just suggesting to use one of the methods outlined in my initial post to slightly reduce the penalties, either (1) allowing them to become soldiers again, (2) shortening their time fuse, or (3) allowing some means of educating them to shorten their time fuse. The 4th solution proposed here, making the extra colonists you get on declaring independence into normal colonists instead of indentured servants, would also work for me.

    Cheers, --- Wheldrake
     
  19. DodgyDave

    DodgyDave Chieftain

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    well most of europeans where actually indentured servants, uneducated people (varies farmers)... i find it stange that you get Free colonists as the main ones... You should be able to buy Indentured Servants and gain them much more from Docks, because there was so many of them back then... Free Colonists (if that is the right name) where educated... So new colonists gained from Colonies, should be Indentured Servants or Free Colonists if you have build any education buildings... and able to train indentured servants into free colonists...

    criminals are a silly idea, doubt there where that many of those as you get in this game, they should just be considered Indentured Servants and Criminals be slaves instead perhaps...
     
  20. Aerion

    Aerion Chieftain

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    Bingo. But, unfortunately, you get into some political correctness issues.
     

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