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On Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir's Oration

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by IceBlaZe, Oct 19, 2003.

  1. Richard III

    Richard III Duke of Gloucester

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    If I'm the Neville Chamberlain, then could you be the Lord Halifax of the story? Let's find out. If you can't restrain yourself, here goes, try and argue with someone you can't just denounce as an Isreali for a change.

    France was an Axis client, and therefore IS a former Axis client. Unlike say, in the Netherlands, the LEGAL French government, in 1940, chose to:

    - surrender completely to Germany, rather than simply surrendering to German forces but continuing to resist in exile as every single other invaded country chose to do
    - negotiate terms with Germany
    - implement policies to assist Germany in prosecuting the war
    - order its troops to engage in combat against Allied forces
    - break a treaty signed just weeks before with Britain that guaranteed that the French fleet would not be placed in jeapordy of falling into German hands. Why? Because the French wanted to use the ships to cut a better deal with Hitler
    - institute a quasi-fascist regime which continued to operate from Germany soil even after the liberation of France oh, and...
    - with the documented support of large parts of the population, sent Jews to German camps, and often did so without the Germans even asking for such assistance.


    So, let me ask this: if antisemitism appeared to be on the rise in Germany, it would be a legitimate cause for concern, given its history, correct? Given that it organized and successfully implemented the Holocaust, with the help of some - not all, but certainly some - of its ordinary citizens?

    If so, then why not, say, show similar concern if the same thing began in France, given that it, too, aided and abetted Germany actively in prosecuting the Holocaust?

    Please explain - without trolling me about my purported "anti-french opinions, since I am merely citing historical facts - what is wrong with this logic?
     
  2. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff Supporter

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    Very well, you surmise that the threat of a fascist, right-wing France is possible to rise?

    You may as well go the full hog and accuse the UK of bringing back Imperialism, or Russia of the gulags.

    What if racial hate began to rise in Canada?
    Would you be OK with the USA sending in some divisions of troops for 'safe-guarding'...

    To answer, I would say that what you suggest, indeed, probably hope for, is very, very unlikely.

    Young nations like Canada are more in danger of a modern racial implosion than the old European states.


    And before we go on any further, RIII.

    I know you well, and you know me, so please do not presume to hide your dire attitude to France.

    Your feigned even-handedness, while amusing, does not cut any mustard for one who has known you in other realms...;)
     
  3. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff Supporter

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    So, RIII.

    Do you honestly believe that France is a threat to world peace?

    And if so, what does Canada propose to do about it?

    Or are you outrageously pulling my leg?
     
  4. Pontiuth Pilate

    Pontiuth Pilate Republican Jesus!

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    Guys, let's put this in perspective:

    A CANADIAN and a BRIT arguing about whether or not FRANCE has lost "world-power" status is verging on the absurd, don't you think?
     
  5. Richard III

    Richard III Duke of Gloucester

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    You know, the funny thing is, it wasn't so long ago that every major newsmagazine in the world speculated about just that sort of nightmare for reasons we both now.

    But no, I don't think that's likely. All the same, I don't fault anyone for being vigilant about it in the same way the Germans are. And while a full fledged Nazi Frankenreich strikes me as unlikely, more minor anti-semitic tendencies are certainly worth watching for - and therefore, worth debating.


    It is. What's your point? Don't mistake me for one of those nationalist folks you find around here who is incapable of self-criticism. These boards are full of discussions, by me, of Canadian racism. I don't pretend it doesn't happen just because I'm Canadian, anymore than I will allow you to pretend it doesn't happen in France just because they're French.

    For what must be at least the third time today, you are making the mistake of confusing opinion for bias. I am, as you are, quite capable of making sound and objective arguments about countries of which I have low opinions. If that weren't a fair thing to say, then surely you would be disqualified from having an opinion about Israel as well, true?

    Think that through ONE more time so I don't have to tire myself out by repeating it. :D

    R.III
     
  6. Richard III

    Richard III Duke of Gloucester

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    NO, FOR GOD's SAKE STOP TAKING EVERYONE'S ARGUMENT AND EXTENDING IT TO THE MOST ABSURD POSSIBLE CONCLUSION!!!!

    I am saying that it is FAIR for someone to be CONCERNED and CRITICAL about latent anti-semitism in France, and given French history, that it's not NECESSARILY trolling to be worried that a French President is percieved to be excusing anti-semitic remarks by another world leader!!

    Is that so terrible? So trolling? I am quite sure I'm evenhanded - I've criticized the leader of a government I've worked for, to reporters, on immigration policy. So why should I excuse the French the same just because I'm not terribly impressed with their history? I'm really quite baffled about this...

    R.III
     
  7. Richard III

    Richard III Duke of Gloucester

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    And we both know they've lost world power status. Haven't had it since Waterloo. Such an obvious point is not worthy of debate between the likes of Curt and I. :D
     
  8. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff Supporter

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    There are racial-spewing goons in every nation.

    I just take unbridge to unfair macro-trollings by people who thrive on flaming speculative arguments and put-downs of entire cultures.
    (I don't mean yourself, either)

    But!
    A mild difference between myself and your good personage, I have no low opinions of any nation.

    While it must be difficult keeping all that pent-up anti-Gallic steam at a peep,
    I guess that makes for a handicap, despite your objectivity. :D

    Well, now we have went hideously off topic, I must say you are as amusing a wit as ever, RIII. :)

    Moderator Action: You have been off topic nearly every posts in this thread continuing with a threadjack and personal attacks even after my warning in post#35, combine with overall belligerant in your face style for most of your recent posting. 10 days restriction. If you had not be so foolish as to disable PMs, you could have had personal notice of your warning.
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

    But you really haven't budged me one bit from my stance.
    Trolling is trolling, and I while I consider a figure like Chirac fair game for flak, I draw the line at the whole of Europe being called nazis.
    (again, I do not refer to you, RIII)

    Basically,
    I defend my own culture every time.

    But not the politicians, fire away at them.
     
  9. Richard III

    Richard III Duke of Gloucester

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    Well, since we appear to agree that

    1. Trolling is trolling - with an apparent disclaimer that one troll is forever
    2. Chirac is fair game
    3. Racism should be watched for; and
    4. Europe is not full of nazis; and
    5. Although the Allies could have tried harder to help the Jews during the war...
    6. Nevertheless that fact should not lead to a blanket dismissal or condemnation of the allied sacrifice or the war effort as though #5 was a failure by allied soldiers in general...

    ...Then I see no further reason to distract myself from sitting down with my glass of Jameson's and reading "God's Secretaries," a history of the compilation and translation of the King James Bible, which enticeth me.

    :D
     
  10. Pongui

    Pongui Deity

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    Read in its entirety, Mahathir Mohamad's speech is decidedly undiplomatic. He tears into Muslims too. Maybe Israel should organize a condemnation against his anti-Muslim statements?

    A good strong speech. Made me think.
     
  11. rouli

    rouli pizza for launch?

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    looking at the bright side of things, at least Mahathir Mohamad doesn't deny the killing of 6 million jews...

    (no, I didn't meant that the europeans deny it, don't flame me! Yes although I'm israeli, I can post something which is not plain euro-bashing! ;))
     
  12. Mopheo

    Mopheo Warlord

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    I am disgusted that New York State had a large quantity of slaves, and that they were not freed for a very long period of time.
    I think that Hillary Clinton’s educational policies are hurting New York State.

    What “someone” might say in response:

    Why do you go around bashing Americans?
    I know that this is just a thinly veiled jibe at all Americans, even though you try to hide it in your supposed “evenhandedness.”
    Trolling is trolling, and I while I consider a figure like Hillary Clinton fair game for flak, I draw the line at the whole of America being called racists.

    ------

    I have no idea what Hillary Clintons educational policies are, I just picked her as a recognizable name.
    Also, I tried not to make this post derogatory in any way, or an exaggeration. If you, the mods, think I failed this, feel free to delete or change it. I just want to put a different perspective on “someone” comments, in the unlikely case that someone is swayed by them into thinking that anyone who posted here is racist toward Europeans in general, or the French.
     
  13. Pongui

    Pongui Deity

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    If an Israeli official said, "Jews use their brains and rise to the top despite a hostile world", I don't know that we'd be fingering him as anti-Semitic. Like statements by Muslims must be anti-Semitic?

    Because a Muslim said it.:hmm:

    About war by proxy. I guess that hit a nerve. Well, let's be frank about the serendipity of US/Israel action and interest in the Mid-East lately. There's no deep conspiracy here. War, and threat of war by proxy is in fact what's happened and happening, as far as Israel is concerned.

    War by proxy is official: A Clean Break

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Great changes are seldom achieved without a plan. The Israeli policy paper “A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm” (ACB) was authored by a group of policy advisors to Israel. Subsequently, nearly all members ascended to influential policy making positions within U.S. government, media, and academic circles. Many of the ACB policies such as toppling the government of Iraq are now in full implementation...
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "Roll back" Syria.:lol:
     
  14. Richard III

    Richard III Duke of Gloucester

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    Sean, don't be absurd. To (a) portray Jews as having operated as a cabal for 2,000 years as though they had secret meetings to figure it all out, and (b) to insist that they are ruling the world now is as good a mark of an anti-semite as I can imagine. Hitler made remarks of the same ilk, and for the same reason.

    R.III
     
  15. Mopheo

    Mopheo Warlord

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    Double Post
     
  16. Mopheo

    Mopheo Warlord

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    @ Sean
    In most cases you would be right, but Jews have a history of being oppressed and killed due to just these arguments, and I think you might have to make an exception for that.

    In any case, on topic, I have not read the entire speech, and so can not make a truthful decision on if the quote was taken out of context. In any case, a quote like that should alone be condemned when made by a head of government, as even if it wasn't the prime ministers intention, to be "antisemetic," it would still be taken as evidence for antisemetic groups, and would bolster the antisemetic cause.

    So, from the information I currently have, he should be condemned for thoughtlessness and provocative comments. I don't know if he meant to be racist until I read the full speech (an neither can anyone else).
     
  17. Pongui

    Pongui Deity

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    Did you bother to read what Mahathir Mohamad said? In full, in context?

    I think you're just pulling up taboo conspiracy theories and trying to stick them on that man, or even myself. If me, well, I've gone out of my way to say there's no deep conspiracy in the Mid-East. A long-term foreign relations policy paper written for Israel by Americans is conspiratorial in a sense, but frankly so. Call it a joint plan.

    Every country and every organization makes plans both openly and secretly with others. Personally, I don't mind the word "conspire" or see it as very offensive or stirring. The PM's point was that Muslim countries are big time losers on this front. He's right.
     
  18. Pontiuth Pilate

    Pontiuth Pilate Republican Jesus!

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    If his essential point was that Israel [or for that matter "moderate" arab nations like Turkey and Saudi Arabia] are a front for American power in the Middle East and bases for military and political operations, then he's right, and no amount of antisemitic propaganda surrounding that will change that fact.

    OTOH, he probably ruined any legitimacy his argument might have had when he started spewing the usual anti-Jew bs. THAT'S what deserved the condemnation. Not the idea that Israel and the US are conspiring together. They are.

    On the left foot, I don't see why anyone should have a problem with that. The alternative is non-existence for Israel, and Americans having to pay a whole lot more for gasoline.
     
  19. IceBlaZe

    IceBlaZe Atheist Proselytizer

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    It is comfortable to say that Israel and the US are "conspiracing" together, but I doubt such an argument hold water.
    The US was reluctant for a long time to strongly support Israel, and frankly, the US-Israeli relations are quite natural - Israel IS the only democracy in the Middle east.
    Conspirating together? I don't think so.
    Israel WILL obey many US orders, because the US is a big and important vein of it's existence - but that is natural aswell - a small state in a hostile environment supported by a stronger state and sometimes reflects it's policies.
    Most absurd conspiracy theories can be explained by regular politics - the fact that some people choose to go with conspiracy anyway - is a different matter. A matter that belongs to Psychology and the mysteries of the mind - not politices.
     
  20. Pontiuth Pilate

    Pontiuth Pilate Republican Jesus!

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    We WERE reluctant to support Israel, until Israel broke the back of Arab nationalism in 1967. Then we realized what a great tool they could be and started joint military operations together.

    No way is it a conspiracy. It's all out in the open. We even lend them military machinery - and soldiers and pilots! Israel has its own foreign policy, its own leadership, and its own army, but it's still an extension of American foreign policy in the Mideast. Again, like Turkey and Saudi Arabia.
     

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