On Mod Civs - Split or alternate leaders?

Hiram

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Just been watching the Gorgo stream and I quite like what the devs have done with alternate leaders for civs (essentially combining the Civ 4 system with traits that modders have used for making alternate leaders in civ 5 such as alternate city lists, uniques, colours, etc).

In terms of the vanilla civs we're getting in Civ 6, I think that we could go about expanding on existing civs something like this:

My decisions on splitting or not splitting civs are based on factors of cultural diversity and whether certain leaders were leaders of distinct political entities from what would be considered the wider culture of a civ.

America - alternate leaders
Arabia - a grey area, but I think alternate leaders representing different dynasties would work
Aztecs - alternate leaders
Brazil - alternate leaders
China - alternate leaders representing dynasties
Egypt - split Cleopatra into separate Ptolemaic civ and add another Egyptian leader
France - alternate leaders
Germany - split into Holy Roman Empire and German Empire
Greece - more alternate leaders
India - Split along the lines of the one More Civs did for Civ 5
Japan - alternate leaders
Kongo - alternate leaders
Norway - alternate leaders
Rome - alternate leaders
Russia - alternate leaders
Scythia - Split: Massagetae, Roxolani & Royal Scythia?
Spain - alternate leaders + civs pre-unification could be fun
Sumeria - alternate leaders

Thoughts?
 
Civ6 doesn't introduce anything new in this aspect. Maybe, there will be minor technical differences (like civ icon connected to leader object, etc.) or might even not.

It's matter of personal preferences.
 
Still, since there is an existing scheme for alternate leaders build in, its worthwhile thinking about this, especially since the way it works with different city lists, colours and stuff will make it easier to implement your ideas into existing Civs. It will lead to some modders using it to just implement other leaders and some to split as they did before in Civ 5, Which means potentially less compatibility with different leader/civ mods. Easiest way to prevent that is to speak with each other and plan a bit ahead, but as you said its personal preference, so there probably wont be any consensus preventing a flood of different ways to tackle the issue. Civ 5 hasnt had this problem since there (originally) was just one leader for one civ.

For example, I wouldnt split Germany just in HRE and German Reich, since "inside" HRE alone has a vast amount of potential original Civs (Prussia, Austria, Saxony and so on). On the other hand, you could say this for many others as well (fe. Arabia). But then again, it would be a mess if everybody just splitted the heck out of every Civ and then throw their unique one civ/one leader mod out which conflicts with other approaches on civ-splitting (so in this case, Hirams Germanys/Arabia and mine couldnt really work together, if anyone would want to have both).

Maybe some Modders planning to do historical Civs should get together and make a plan beforehand which Civs should be separated. Then people could fill them with leaders as they whish, but there would be a bit of order at least. This way there could be a nice coherent and functional while huge leader/civ pack without mixing and messing up everything.

Well, but to answer the initial post a bit more clearly:

America -> would be fine to just add leaders; but you could also rename it USA and create other american Civs. OR you get cheeky and add Non-presidential (nonwhite/usa) leaders, like Sitting Bull or something, to the leaderlist of America. But I guess that wouldnt be a very sensible idea..

Arabia -> dynasty leaders would be fine i think, since Arabia represents early medieval, united Arabia. But like I said above, a huge area of nice Civs would be locked out. Playing other arabian nations along the original Arabia could feel a bit odd. But well, debatable.

Aztecs -> agreed (altough, how much is known about other historical Leaders of the Aztecs?)
Brazil-> agreed
China -> altough you could also replace it with warring states or 20th century warclans, it makes much more sense to leave china as a whole, yes. So many potential leaders!

Egypt -> I think keeping Cleopatra is fine, if youd add an ancient Leader and maybe also a modern time one it would feel natural. Although splitting Cleo to a Ptolemaic Civ would be great too, you could still use some other leader for that.

France -> same as China actually, too much great leaderstuff to go before you think of splitting.

Germany -> so, like I said above, I would be strongly in favour of splitting Germany further. On the other hand, its actually a different issue as with Arabia, when I just think again.. It still would feel natural to play as fe Prussia along with HRE ( and German Reich for that matter, too). Hm. Maybe it would be easier and still practical with just HRE and Reich, but my first concern was that it gets to limited for this diverse and complicated history in Germany. Ill have to think about that one more..

Greece -> same story as in Civ 5 actually.. Splitting would be nicer and more accurate (though messy). On the other hand, maybe you could do it like with Egypt, so drwaing a wider "greek" legacy and include early stuff like Mykene and later stuff like Byzantians, modernday Greece and so on. I dont know though, is it possible to alternate the Civs name with different leaders, too? Then this would make perfectly sense. Also, is it even possible to have a playthorugh with different leaders for the same Civ??

India -> yes, though the greek/egypt option would be doable too.

Japan -> agreed, altough also some similarities to the Greece problem. Maybe just differentiate between modern Japan and different older japanese Civs.
Kongo -> agreed, but as woth sumeria and aztecs limited info for good new leaders.. (maybe?)
Norway -> agreed
Rome -> agreed, but how to deal with east/west rome?
Russia -> agreed
Scythia -> dont know, really...
Spain -> yes, it would, but then the same is true for Russia! (Kiev, Moskow and stuff)
Sumeria -> Well, not too much info on them, but since Im not sure Im comfortable with semi-historical Gilgamesh, another leader would be good anyway. (ok lol, just looked at wikipedia for other sumerians, and it appears there are tons and tons...)

You forgot England btw: with the old "England/GBR" discussion... But if youd add more early historical leaders, the obvious choice would be to leave it as England and create other biritsh Civs like Scotland instead.


I think the new way in which Civ 6 deals with different leaders gives definately different options than Civ 5 did. But a few questions remain till release to really be able to oversee the implications on modding, probably.
How you handle it probably comes down to the question how much you care about historical coherency, but the more coherent you try to make it it gets increasingly (over-)complicated and big. Modders of different understandings of these two dimensions will need to think about how to solve this, otherwise the mixing and mashing of different modders Civs wont work as in Civ 5.
 
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The problem with alternate leaders is simply that you're barely changing anything other than the a single LA and the agenda, forcing you to keep the other 3 basic uniques. For this reason I literally see no reason to do an alternate leader, since it still requires you to produce the most intensive asset (the LS) for like 20% of the end result. This isn't even just a problem with mods, given the only alt leader in the game suffers heavily from this. Sparta was not a republic, yet gets the Platos republic UA. The Acropolis is a massive symbol of Athens, yet when playing a Spartan leader, its still one of your main uniques. So you end up with this complete garbage Spartan civ with 1 bonus towards military, acropolis districts and a jack-of-all trades non military UA. What?

So if you wanted to do an alternate leader for, say, England. You basically couldn't. Henry VIII with British Museum as his UA? There'll be 0 synergy between any of the uniques, not to mention the fact that Britain wouldn't even exist until some 150 years after his death, let alone the British museum.

Joseph Stalin with a design focused around religion? That's absolutely haram

A warlike Aurangzeb LA with Indias 'rewards peace' UA? Contradictory and absolute hell to play

I could go on and on but honestly I just think alternate leaders are garbage in terms of potential. Look at JFD's Churchill mod - its a fun civ entirely focused around protecting city states and fighting and just generally acting as close to wartime britian as possible. Would the civ be anywhere near as good if he was forced to keep the Ship of the Line and the English Longbowman? Absolutely not, it loses all sense of synergy and hamstrings the ability of the creator to actually make a mod that plays differently.

TL;DR - Always splits, never leaders.
 
Well, it seems that you are not aware:
~Gorgo leads Greece
~TheGuyWhoDiedInRiverLongTimeAgo has U-boat
~Jack of All Trades - good with everything

Hmm, after looking at this entirely funny civ, I have no a single doubt that it would be not a worse design with SotL and Longbowman, rather a better one. Actually, forcing is so negative term in general. In civ5, we were forced to not use the same unique components for two civs. Forcing is bad.
I cannot see why It would be 0 synergies between any of the uniques... with the blank one. But somebody probably could do that, why not.
 
I know all this, I just think its a garbage choice on behalf of the devs
 
Well, youre right that certain things just dont work out if you blindly keep adding leaders.
But I think the problem you see is to a big degree because the Civs Abilitys/Units are sometimes poorly chosen. So its initially a question of good base Civ design to be able to add alternate leaders in a consistent way.
F.e., you could easily redesign Germany Civ into HRE with a different Unit, and Barbarossa and every other Holy Roman Emperor you would add could fit into it too.
If devs didnt choose traits/Units that fit the entire history of a given Civ or that Civ is ahistorical, then thats a problem of poor design, not alternate leaders per se.

Greek is the best example because there was no such thing as a Greek Civ in the time of Pericles and Gorgo. Hence the difficulty of finding CA that fits universally (I think!).
 
Just been watching the Gorgo stream and I quite like what the devs have done with alternate leaders for civs (essentially combining the Civ 4 system with traits that modders have used for making alternate leaders in civ 5 such as alternate city lists, uniques, colours, etc).

In terms of the vanilla civs we're getting in Civ 6, I think that we could go about expanding on existing civs something like this:

My decisions on splitting or not splitting civs are based on factors of cultural diversity and whether certain leaders were leaders of distinct political entities from what would be considered the wider culture of a civ.

America - alternate leaders
Arabia - a grey area, but I think alternate leaders representing different dynasties would work
Aztecs - alternate leaders
Brazil - alternate leaders
China - alternate leaders representing dynasties
Egypt - split Cleopatra into separate Ptolemaic civ and add another Egyptian leader
France - alternate leaders
Germany - split into Holy Roman Empire and German Empire
Greece - more alternate leaders
India - Split along the lines of the one More Civs did for Civ 5
Japan - alternate leaders
Kongo - alternate leaders
Norway - alternate leaders
Rome - alternate leaders
Russia - alternate leaders
Scythia - Split: Massagetae, Roxolani & Royal Scythia?
Spain - alternate leaders + civs pre-unification could be fun
Sumeria - alternate leaders

Thoughts?

I like the Holy Roman Empire being it's own civ however, I think the rest could be keep. I mean personally, I'd like to see multiple leaders for a modded civ, then again that'd probably be too much work. Either way, always happy to see new civs.
 
For Brazil I propose Pedro´s Grand Father, João VI as alternate leader. João VI brings Portuguese perspective for Brazil starting Empire.

I have a mod on it.

But for now I cant add as alternate leader, someone can check what I am doing wrong with version v.0.2?
 
Well for alternate leaders, to make them an interesting/viable choice, give them different Traits and uniques.

i.e. America (off the cuff and tongue in cheek)
You've got Teddy now, but what about Lincoln as an alt...
Trait: Emancipation Proclamation - Captured units from other civilizations have no maint cost
UU: Gatling Gun (Ranged, replaces minutemen) with a 2 Range
UB: Great Theater (Replaces Movie Studio) provides +2 culture, -1 Amenity (due to being closed because, well, ya know :p )

Not a horrible thought all around... either way is good, it's all preference. Well, and modder ability.
 
Well for alternate leaders, to make them an interesting/viable choice, give them different Traits and uniques.

i.e. America (off the cuff and tongue in cheek)
You've got Teddy now, but what about Lincoln as an alt...
Trait: Emancipation Proclamation - Captured units from other civilizations have no maint cost
UU: Gatling Gun (Ranged, replaces minutemen) with a 2 Range
UB: Great Theater (Replaces Movie Studio) provides +2 culture, -1 Amenity (due to being closed because, well, ya know :p )

Not a horrible thought all around... either way is good, it's all preference. Well, and modder ability.
The problem is that the alternate leader system only allows you to change the leader ability, not the UU or UB. Granted, assuming that we can't change UAs, UUs, or UBs with a modded alternate leader may be a little bit presumptive.
 
The problem is that the alternate leader system only allows you to change the leader ability, not the UU or UB. Granted, assuming that we can't change UAs, UUs, or UBs with a modded alternate leader may be a little bit presumptive.

Well, we can at least add new UUs via a leader ability - Teddy already has the Rough Rider and Victoria has the Redcoat, for instance, both linked to the leader and not the civ.
 
The problem is that the alternate leader system only allows you to change the leader ability, not the UU or UB. Granted, assuming that we can't change UAs, UUs, or UBs with a modded alternate leader may be a little bit presumptive.

That doesn't seem entirely true. The uniques that the base civ (e.g. America, Film Studio and plane thing) do not appear hardcoded. They're assigned manually to each leader, and thus could be omitted in favour of different ones.
 
That doesn't seem entirely true. The uniques that the base civ (e.g. America, Film Studio and plane thing) do not appear hardcoded. They're assigned manually to each leader, and thus could be omitted in favour of different ones.
If this is true then the complaint voiced by @Urdnot_Scott is irrelevant and there is no issue.
 
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