On national wonders

[Semmel]

I was wondering about the new rule for national wonders as well as the wonders it self.

First, let me review the national wonders, their [conditions] and their effects:
Hermitage [Museum]: +100% culture in the city
Heroic Epic [Barracks]: Moral Promotion (+15% combat strength) for all units
Ironworks [Workshop]: +20% production in the city
National College [Library]: +50% beakers in the city
National Epic [Monument]: +25% great people points in that city
Oxford University [University]: one free technology

National wonders have quite some effect range. It might be easy to have a monument in all cities, but 25% great person points for the National Epic is not that impressive, the garden has the same effect. The SP Democraty has even 50% bonus on great people empire wide. Also +20% production doesn't seem like quite a lot either for the Iron Works. Maybe the National College is not bad at the beginning, but once you get Universities (+50% science), public school (+50% science) and even science lab (+100% science), the national collage seems rather week.

Only two really stand out, the Oxford University which gives a free tech and the Hermitage. The Oxford University is in fact as strong as a world wonder (Great Library) and the Hermitage which is the only building (eccept Sistine Chapel which gives 33% culture in all cities) that grands a percentage bonus to culture.

Heroic Epic is somewhat in between. +15% combat strength is pretty decent, but almost every other promotion gives you more bonus. But in the end, every penny might count in a combat with limited resources and limited number of units.

After putting the effect of national wonders in perspective, lets see which empires can build them, or rather .. for which it is affordable.

Since you have to have a building of one type in all your cities to unlock the national wonders, this favours small empires with cities that are kind of all-rounders rather than specialized cities. Because if you specialize your cities, you might have some gold cities, science cities, production cities.. in the end, you don't really build a barracks in all of them, or a university. In fact, the availability of national wonders is determined by your weakest city. So, in order to get their bonus, ALL your cities should be decent. You cant just spam a city on that desert tile with almost nothing around just to get that one resource.
An other factor is building maintenance. National Wonders get increasingly expensive with a growing empire. Also in a large empire, their effect shrinks because they have rather local effects that don't give you much advantage if you build a rather large, world-spanning empire. So, all in all, warmongers might not be able to build more than.. lets say two national wonders: the heroic epic and the national epic.

Summary: National wonders clearly favour small empires with well placed, large and versatile cities.

 

[Terrance888]

That would make it easier to get the Bollywood Acheivement: win with only 3 cities as Ghandi.

 

[Zhahz]

I think you're underestimating the power of pretty much all of them and I don't see why people get so enamored with "1 free tech" gimmes. One tech is probably 10 or less turns of research outside of slingshot scenarios that aren't always available. A 20% bonus or whatever for half or more of the game is at least as significant. There's also no longer a 2 nationals per city limit so you could stack the crap out of one city to make a monster.

That would make it easier to get the Bollywood Acheivement: win with only 3 cities as Ghandi.

That achievement, like many of them, is a pitiful joke. Winning cultural as any ruler with 3 cities should be pretty easy and especially so as Ghandi. Next up, the achievement for breathing oxygen.

 

[Cyberian]

@Zhahz

The tech tree is not that big. And what is good about a free tech bonus is, that you usually use it for a tech that you wouldn't research normally because of the increased cost in another era.

So you use the great library for civil service which grants you food 4 farms before anybody else which will make a huge impact. And with oxford university you could for example do Astronomy and send your units over ocean before anyone else can.
Will make quite a big difference.

 

[Terrance888]

You can aim Oxford so that it completes as soon as you get astronomy prerequesite, so that is from Optics to Astronomy (in CIV terms) in one turn.

 

[Semmel]

I maybe forgot to mention that a workshop or a blacksmith gives you similar bonuses as the ironworks. They are just more specific in their effect. But if you consider the costs you have by building in your empire the ironworks wonder, the effect is quite little compared to a blacksmith, which is not only cheaper but also doesnt have as many requirements and running costs. If at all, national wonders are opportunity buildings for middle and larger empires. If it happened that you have in all but one or two of your 10 cities a workshop, you might as well finish them off so you can build the national wonder. But building 7 workshops in order to get ironworks is quite an invenstment.

 

[pi-r8]

I was also surprised by the national wonders. I expected them to still work like the Civ 4 national wonders, which are expensive but each one is very powerful. But I guess these are balanced by cost- the ironworks, for example, is only 170, which is less than a lot of normal buildings, and the same as one trebuchet.

 

[Cyberian]

What I really like is that it seems you can build all the national wonders in your capital.

As it will clearly be the most powerful city you have.

I think the only one I won't build there is the heroic epic because the main city has not enough time for building lots of units.

 

[Ribannah]

I don't think that there will be enough turns to do that. Also, specializing may give you more great people in total.

 

[ShaqFu]

On the contrary to your theory that National Wonders are best for large civs, it looks to me they're better in small ones. The reason for this is that, unlike Civ4's requirement of some buildings, Civ5 NWs require on in every single city. Let's look at The Hermitage's ultimate hammer cost per city:

Museum: 350, requires....
Opera House: 220, requires...
Temple: 120, requires...
Monument: 60

Add those together, and you have 750 hammers per city to build Museums in each. For maintenance, it's 9 gold/turn per city just to pay for these buildings. I don't know how much building/specialization will go on in Civ5, but 750 hammers per city is worth 3 Cannon, or almost 4 Riflemen. If you're not going for a culture victory, you'd do better with the units than the buildings. If you're playing a small, focused civ though, The Hermitage could push you over the top for your culture win: doubling your raw cultural output in one city can accelerate those last few SPs to Utopia. If you're playing a 10-city empire going for space/domination, though, it's really not worth the 7810 hammers and 90 gold/turn just for another 20-30 culture per turn.

 

[feelotraveller]

The Hermitage argh!

I . . . am . . . never . . . going . . . to . . . be . . . able . . . to . . . build . . . that

The National College, on the other hand, looks both strong and doable (I reckon I'll have libraries everywhere anyway ).

EDIT: I should qualify that. Under my normal playing style (huge map etc.) I'll never build the Hermitage. In a OCC on the other hand it will be easy.

 

[Wuddel]

The Heroic Epic is pretty strong. Since you will likely make one city your main military production city pretty early on anyway with all advanced buildings and omit those in the other cities.

Ironworks is usually also a production city building (most of the time the capital), but more to get wonders done quickly. Maybe pair both.

 

[Celevin]

The Heroic Epic is pretty strong. Since you will likely make one city your main military production city pretty early on anyway with all advanced buildings and omit those in the other cities.

I love love love that this is the only way to get "better units" out of cities. One of my favourite small changes in Civ5 that I think will make it leagues better than Civ4 is there's no more great general stacking. I found that one of my cities absolutely rocked at producing units, and all of the other ones turned into "siege engine workshops" in a time of war.

I once had 10 great generals in one city by Civil Service. It's fun once, then gets old fast. Beating down Riflemen with Macemen was awesome, though...