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On the Importance of the United Kingdom

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Pillager, Mar 24, 2003.

  1. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff Supporter

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    @wonderfluff.

    At least I say things of consequence.
    I left the door open, actually. Hope you get a chill.

    :D
     
  2. MrPresident

    MrPresident Anglo-Saxon Liberal

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    As long as it's not US soil.
     
  3. smalltalk

    smalltalk monkey business

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    Oops, surprise!

    I did some calculations, based on pop figures and EU council votes
    http://www.eu2003.gr/en/cat/37/

    The results are hilarious. :lol: Luxemburg comes out way best.

    Votes in EU-council per Million people:

    Luxembourg 4.34
    Ireland 0.82
    Portugese 0.78
    Belgium 0.78
    Greece 0.73
    Finnland 0.57
    Denmark 0.55
    NL 0.5
    Austria 0.46
    Sweden 0.45
    Spain 0.20
    UK 0.17
    Italy 0.17
    France 0.16
    Germany 0.12


    Undoubtedly, the Europeans do care for their tiny members.
     
  4. Peri

    Peri Vote early and vote often

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    I am all for having pride in my country but when it manifests itself as the yob from Keith Allen's song 'Vindaloo' then I think that is the time to be reticent. Hands up who is embarassed by the image of the patriotic englishman abroad with his can of lager and abuse of jonny foreigner or the way he screams Inger lund at sporting events. What about constant references to 1966 in any conversation involving Germany? 'White van man' while not representitive of national pride is the most commonly associated image.
    We need to change that image fast. I am not aware of other nations showing their patriotism in such an ugly way. I think that they can show pride without arrogance whereas many here cant.
     
  5. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff Supporter

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    I love my country, but I peri hits the nail on the head of what I am critical of.

    The arrogant yobbo attitude.
     
  6. Richard III

    Richard III Duke of Gloucester

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    (Rule Britannia, Britannia rule the waves!
    Britons never, ever, ever shall be slaves....)

    :D

    Long live Britain's national debt - which gave birth to the modern world, and remains Britain's calling card for every corner of the globe!

    (If you don't know what I mean, read a little)

    R.III
     
  7. Peri

    Peri Vote early and vote often

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    I would have said that one of our key national characteristics is our modesty. Even if we are number 2 as you claim it is very un English to say so;)
     
  8. nihilistic

    nihilistic Intergalatic Delivery Boy

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    :rotfl:
     
  9. anarchywrksbest

    anarchywrksbest Deity

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    I agree with Pillager other than America who has more influence than us??

    Oh and...

    JOIN THE NEW BRITISH EMPIRE

    Click the Demo Game link in my sig ;)
     
  10. EdwardTking

    EdwardTking Deity

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    Eccentric pronunciation; but what is wrong with that?
     
  11. Pillager

    Pillager League of Empire Loyalist

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    Indeed, but it would make your more posts more interesting if you addressed the issue, rather than making constant criticism of my supposed envy of the US.


    And yet again you seem to be resorting to attacks on my attitude. All I desire in my thread is some reasons why you think that, after the USA, the UK is not the most important nation in the world. Despite your numerous posts on the subject you are still yet to give me any reason further than the Soviet or Chinese military. I have listed examples of why I think it can be said that we are the second most important country, to which you have not responded. It doesn't even matter whether or not I believe my argument to be true, but I have at least shown that a case can be made. Your comments seem to based on assigning fantasies to me. Fascinating, I'm sure, but bugger all to do with the question asked in the thread.

    And once again you seem to be creating posts. Please point to where I've said that.

    Right. Show me where in this thread or the other I have ranted, where I have made a statement that I haven't explained, or where I have been anything but reasonable in explaining my point of view. If you are unable to, please withdraw the comment.

    As for the view that is an island of sense; this seems to confirm my suspicion that you are paying insufficient attention to what I have previously elucidated. Half of the argument is that on individual measurements we are often soundly outranked by other nations, but, when taken as a whole, no nation does so.


    To make an honest and genuine suggestion, Curt, you seem to be so keen not to be too proud of this nation that you are unwilling to concede that fact that actually she is rather important. That after the United States, she could be said to be the most important nation on the face of this planet. I get the impression that in your haste to avoid being viewed as too patriotic you talk down the UK and talk up other nations too easily.

    Your inability to answer my points, your unwillingness to explain why you think we couldn't be described as the 'second nation', and your disposition towards attacking those who prefer the USA over Europe, leads me to thinking that this is the only reason.

    You refer to racism with regards to MrP in the other thread, and repeatedly to uber-pride and patriotism in both threads. I would respect your argument far more, in fact I would understand your argument far more, if you were to endeavour to answer, please, the following sentences:

    -The USA is the world's only superpower. The second most important nation when military, cultural, economic and political aspects are considered, is the United Kingdom.-

    If you, as many do, disagree with that sentence then that's fine. I can quite understand why people may disagree strongly with that sentence. Would it possible, though, for you to give me a different country that would occupy the 'no. 2 spot', and for you to explain the reasons why that country should be there and not the UK?

    That is the point of my thread; it is not a thread for you to denounce nationalism or 'uber-pride' in one's country in.
     
  12. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    Seems to be a very serious thread. Even MrPresident is not displaying his usual humor (Oooops ! "humour" I mean, sorry :D).

    So, well, I think I'll have to be a bit patriotic also and add my two cents in the discussion.
    I do agree that France think a bit too much of "Europe" as "leverage to amplify our power".
    But I do deny that the UE is a tool of France. I rather see it based on the France-Germany tandem.
    But that's more because they both got the power and the will rather than any "law" in UE. UK and Italy has together as many votes as France and Germany. That they let the latter take the decision is perhaps more a question of influence and involvement than anything else.
    If UK does not involve itself in UE, if its population does not feel European, then don't be surprised that its opinion does not have as much weight as others.
    BTW, I could even point that UK has a better vote-to-population ratio than France and Germany, and that these France and Germany has the WORSE vote-to-population ratio of ALL THE UE. Who should complain then ?

    Ok, went a bit off-topic here. Should perhaps be more on a UE thread. Just wanted to rectify some points :p
    Yes. They are extremely close on nearly everything. But British tend to think that UK have a slight edge over France, while French tend to think that France has a slight edge over UK.
    Most probably China, Russia and France, which are anyway nothing less than equals. Perhaps Germany. Japan is perhaps equal.
    Russia IS in the G8.
    Turkey has ALWAYS been refused in UE because it's still not a full democracy respecting fully the Human Rights. This predates A LONG TIME the election of Chirac.
     
  13. Peri

    Peri Vote early and vote often

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    Their lazy pronunciation is what is wrong
     
  14. Kennelly

    Kennelly Starfleet Admiral

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    While for France this is unfortunately in many ways true (their energy market i.e. is still a EdF monopoly),for Germany this is not true.It is perfectly possible for a British company to take over a German company and the other way around if they have enough money.We saw it in case of Vodafone-Mannesmann:of course there was the Mannesmann resistance,but it was in no way politically motivated or supported.If Mannesmann had tried to take over Vodafone,I'm sure a similar 'battle' would certainly have occurred.
     
  15. Hitro

    Hitro Feistus Raclettus

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    Astonishing that there are still Britons who believe the empire is not long gone.

    The United States are the only "superpower" left in the world, the UK has lost this status through the World Wars (which is btw an interesting long term development, given the German objectives of about 1870 :mischief: ) and will hardly ever retain it.

    When it comes to "influence" and a comparison with other countries except for the U.S. there's also no reason to see the UK above all others. Japan and Germany have stronger economies, several countries in Europe have a higher standard of living, military power doesn't matter (as long as the US is still around) and China and Russia aren't really behind the UK there anyway.

    On the diplomatic side the recent developments didn't really show the UK as more influential than France and Germany, and that although they had the US on their side.

    I guess the only thing where the UK is really far above other Western nations is having illusions about its status. ;)

    As for the war, you don't seriously believe the US wouldn't be able to lead it alone, do you?
     
  16. knowltok2

    knowltok2 Deity

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    Just have to chuckle at that one. Good one. ;)
     
  17. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff Supporter

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    For the final time;

    I am arguing that we are not the 2nd nation of the earth.

    Nothing more.

    That is an illusion that exists in you mind.

    How about European, Russian and Chinese potential for trade, manufacture and manpower?

    When China ditches communism and gets it's markets really moving (and it will) you will find out what a nation can do...

    Same for Russia and Europe if the can tackle their individual problems...

    Can we match it this potential with our drug and unemployment filled population,
    or our foreign-contracted shipbuilding and other industries?

    Wake up, Pillager.
    When these nations get going, they will swamp us.

    You are ranting right now.


    What I do is not your concern.
    When I want a personality profile, I will find a website to do it.

    PS
    You are way off the mark.

    Perhaps you just bore me, and I can't be bothered wasting my time with this?

    Did that cross your mind? :lol:

    OK, in the interests of finally putting you to rest like the tortured apparition you are, I will endeavour to answer you.

    Firstly:
    How does our culture outrank that of Italy, France and Germany, also China? In what ways?
    Are our people a master race? Do we have some moral superiority? Explain!

    Also:
    If we are so rich and affluent: Why do we have so many deprived areas?
    A crap road and deadly rail system?

    Why is our police force at breaking point in certain regions? Why are we failing to stop crime and drugs?

    Why do we not support our war veterans? Why do old people get little support?

    Why do hospitals and firemen complain about pay? Why are doctors leaving the UK?

    Surely a great nation would have all this domestic strife covered?

    Also:
    Why does the USA dictate us to buy US products and threatens to punish us economically if we think of buying elsewhere?
    Why do we rely on the USA for trade?
    Surely the 2nd nation of the earth could tell them to go and hang?

    If we have such a great control over the world’s trade, how come we are at the beck and call of other nations, and must make comprimises?

    Industry:
    How many products the world-over have the 'Made in UK' stamp, as compared to the
    'Made in China', Made in the USA', Made in Japan' or 'Made in Korea'?
    Do we outrank them, Pillager? Can we?

    Compare the populations.

    There are construction companies in the far east that build harbour facilities and huge metro-plexes to order.
    How many UK companies do that? And so cheaply too?
    Why does the world not inundate the UK with orders to do this kind of work?

    Germany and the USA own our most prestigious car firms.
    How is this possible for the 2nd nation of the world?
    Surely we British don’t need to sell off our famous assets?

    Our workforce is small compared to those in the USA, Asia and the far East.
    Why are British firms not getting orders from all over the earth?

    Much of our maritime industry gets contracted to the 'inferior' Europeans and Scandinavians.
    Surely mighty UK ship-building is superior! But is it cheaper?

    The reason UK industry has taken a nose-dive since the 1970’s is due to something called ‘foreign competition’…

    Our army goes to war without being issued proper desert battledress.
    Our troops had to beg rations from the USA military.

    We buy US-made weapons, pray why do we not make our own, like the French and Germans?

    Why isn't ALL UK weapons made in the UK, like the USA?

    Our soldiers were issued with a faulty gun due to cutbacks in materials, the troops had to be re-issued with the old gun, while the ‘replacements’ were remade.

    Surely the army of the 2nd nation of the world would not have these glaring faults.

    Our army is a sliver of what other major global players can field. Although highly-trained.
    The Chinese may use conscripts, but I don’t recall the rule that 50,000 men can beat 10 million. British or not.

    Our navy is a mere shadow of what it was.
    Compared to the world-controlling fleet of the USN.

    The USAF has hundreds of combat craft in the gulf.
    We have over 2 dozen…

    Crunch question:
    Do you, Mr Pillager, reckon the UK could take out Saddam alone?

    I am interested to know.

    All-in-all.
    Not exactly the trappings of a mighty nation that strikes fear into the hearts of others.


    I think it is time you got things into perspective…



    Potentially, China .
    It’s manpower, industry and trade will all become major factors in the next 50 years.

    So?
    Uber-pride seems to be the whole reason we are arguing this fatuous debate…
     
  18. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff Supporter

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    Also, Pillager.

    If we are such a great empire, how come we lost the American colonies and gave away our possesions after WW2?

    Please address this.
     
  19. Heffalump

    Heffalump Proboscidea Heffalumpus

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    I agree that Britain punches above its weight.

    But beyond that it's tough to quantify these things. For example Britain is not the most influential country within Europe itself, yet it's clearly the most influential European country around the world. Only France comes close in that aspect.

    I could definitely agree it's in the top 5.
     
  20. CurtSibling

    CurtSibling ENEMY ACE™ SLeague Staff Supporter

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    So would I.

    The thing Pillager is missing:

    I AM proud to be a Brit.

    I don't have to blow my nation out of proportion to be acknowledged as British with respect around the world.

    This chest beating and aping of the USA, is beneath a TRUE Brit.

    Are you listening, Pillager?
     

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