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On the Importance of the United Kingdom

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Pillager, Mar 24, 2003.

  1. Archer 007

    Archer 007 Rebirth

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    Some of us do, we just dont have much to say;).
     
  2. Plastic

    Plastic Warlord

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    Same dif :p
     
  3. MrPresident

    MrPresident Anglo-Saxon Liberal

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    The only country to do so. Spending 40 odd years to pay off a debt...That is such a British thing to do.
    What I do in the privacy of my bathroom is my own business.
     
  4. Hamlet

    Hamlet Manic Depressive

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    Wow, and I thought you were a liberal.

    So much for focusing on the individual.

    I would like to think that matters are not simply so idiotically simple as "You have citizenship of X country, so you're obviously of X nationality!"

    Nations exist indepedant of states, which seems to be the thing you failed to pick up on a bit there. In fact, you completely ignroed it.
     
  5. MrPresident

    MrPresident Anglo-Saxon Liberal

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    Liberal in politics, liberal in use of toilet duck.
    Individuals don't decide what nationality they are.
    Citizenship isn't nationality.
    What are nations if not states? What makes England a nation? What makes France a nation? What makes a Frenchman, French? And an Englishman, English? If you are born in Northern Ireland then you are Northern Irish. If you move to England and become a citizen then you are Northern Irish-English.
     
  6. Hamlet

    Hamlet Manic Depressive

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    Yes they do. That's a fundamental tennet of Liberalism.

    My point exactly, me old bucko.

    Err, indentities that bind them together as a national grouping?

    Your nationality depends on what you determine it to be. It is completely seperate from legal status within a state - if that were so, then all citizens of The German Empire would have been Germans. And they were not. That individual state consisted of many nationalities - much as Britain does.
     
  7. MrPresident

    MrPresident Anglo-Saxon Liberal

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    You can fight to change your nationality but you can't change it by yourself.
    You can't suddenly decide you are Swedish one day and Australian the next. Your nationality is were you are born and possibly where your parents were born.
     
  8. Hamlet

    Hamlet Manic Depressive

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    By the logic of the first strand of that, Wellington was Irish, to name but one person who seems to refute that logic. The second part is slightly more insightful. I still don't think you've really thought this through, though.

    As Wellington said himself, "Not everyone born in a stable is a horse." (Was it a horse? Or did he say cow? I can't remember.)

    Nationality to me is based around where your own feelings of national identity lie. Your background will obviously be a big factor in deciding that, but it can't simply be the sole factor. And it certainly can't be sued to 'tell' what their nationality is.

    You cannot dictate to people what their nationality is. It is not based around their legal status, or what anyone else determines it to be. It can't be. Nationality, by it's nature, transecends states. It is for the individual to decide where they they feel they belong.
     
  9. Kentonio

    Kentonio Monkey Lord of Civ III

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    Erm, no thats hippy crap.

    Nationality is dependant on the nation of your birth not on how you happen to be feeling one day. In the example used above for instance you mentioned Wellington, well shock-horror Wellington was Irish. He lived a long time in England however and earned the right to call himself English but end of the day he was Irish-English. His comment about the stable was an expression of his (quite ironic) intense dislike of the Irish and I dont really see what purpose it serves in this context.

    I think the funniest quote you have made recently though has to be..

    Lmao. :D :D
     
  10. MrPresident

    MrPresident Anglo-Saxon Liberal

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    Hamlet, can I decide to be Swedish one day and Austrailan the next? Nationality is where you born, end of story. If some people can't accept that then that is there problem. You should be proud of where you are born. That is not to say you can't be proud of where you live as well. Say you were Irish who moved to England. You should be proud of Ireland but can also be proud of England. However you should never forget your roots. Your citizenship can change, your nationality can't. I'm English till the day I die and there ain't a thing I can do about it.
     
  11. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    No. Nationality is where your heart goes.
    You can be born in a nation, and still because of various links, feel yourself as being from another one.

    Nationality is the link that exists between a person and a nation. The place of birth has a strong influence, but is not all.
     
  12. MrPresident

    MrPresident Anglo-Saxon Liberal

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    No ethinicity or religion or whatever is where your heart goes. Not nationality.
     
  13. Hamlet

    Hamlet Manic Depressive

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    Yes, of course. It would look fairly foolish and idiotic, but you could do it. I don't see why you would want to - my exposition of how people determine their nationality relies on people acting with some degree of natural inclination, you see - but you could do it.

    Whatever national identity you feel you want to align yourself with, it's your choice.

    Individual choice, eh! Now there's a novel concept! What year are we living in, btw? 1542?

    Such a persuasive argument. Keep repeating that and it might come true. One day.

    Oh, deary me. Now we are talking tosh.

    You have displayed such an authoritarian and parochial attitude to this whole issue, it's absolutely astonishing.

    People can't decide which nationality they chose to allign themselves with. Now they should be proud of their place of birth, for some ungiven reason, by golly!

    You do realise you've just completely obliterated the whole basis in your mind for the principle that people should have self-determination, don't you?

    You aint no liberal, sonny.

    You're English because you have been brought up in England and have been given the full force of it's culture, and you accept your Englishness.

    There are people in other countries who have neither been brought up in such a way a way that makes them feel they are part of said country's mainstream identity and culture, and don't accept they should be.

    This is why we have self-determination. People chose whatever shall be their national identity and whoever shall have soverignty over them, as astonishing as that might be to you.
     
  14. MrPresident

    MrPresident Anglo-Saxon Liberal

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    It's not a matter of individual choice. You are what you are. You can accept it or ignore it but you can't change it.

    Citizenship is where you can exercise your individual choice, not nationality.
    Don't you mean keeping repeating it and you might accept that it is true?
    Speak for yourself.
    It's not a matter of freedom. Do you decide whether you are human or not? No, you are a human being. You are not a pig, a dog or a cat regardless of whether you think you are. I am not denying anyone's individual choice when I say they are a human when they want to be a horse. It is a matter of fact not debate.
    Exactly. People can't choose their family but they can choose their friends. They can't choose their nationality but they can choose their citizenship.
    And you ain't in the position to tell me what my political views are, laddy.
    I am English because I was born in England. Simple.
    No they don't. They can choose their cultural identity, their religion, their ethnicity, their citizenship, their car, their job, their choice of newspaper, whether to take the rubbish out today or tomorrow but they do not choose their nationality.
     
  15. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    MrPresident, I think you awfully mix "place of birth" with "nationality".

    You can emigrate and become a fierce and sincere patriot of you new country. Place of birth only decide of your citizenship. Nationality is a feeling. You can shout and cry and anything you like, if I don't feel my heart belong to a country, your words won't change it.
    Likely, you can shout and cry as much, if I feel I'm part of another nation, your words won't change it.
     
  16. MrPresident

    MrPresident Anglo-Saxon Liberal

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    You are the one mixing up the terms. Citizenship means where you reside. Nationality means where you were born.
    I don't deny that. Perhaps some of the greatest patriots are people not born in that country. Bob Hope being a great example.
    Like I said. You can accept it or ignore it but you can't change it. You may not feel like you belong to your country and that is fine but you do belong to that country. Just like you may not feel your biological father is your father that doesn't change the fact that he is.
     
  17. Hamlet

    Hamlet Manic Depressive

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    So people are, and always will be inherently Irish, or inherently Russian, or whatever?

    I could go into an argument about the utterly dangerous levels you could take this sort of nonsense to, but I'll spare you the embarassement.

    ?

    I do. It's marvellous.

    *Sigh*, that was an echo of your previous statements, as part of a comment about how ridiulous it was.

    A fundamental tennet of Liberalism, no, the fundamental tennet of Liberalism, is that you have choice over as much as is possible without infringing upon others.

    And it's application on an international level is that people can chose whatever state and nation they belong to. There is no rational impediment to you chosing your nationality, as far as I can see.

    If you don't accept all that - and you have completely rejected it here - you have no basis for saying that you're a liberal. None whatsoever.

    So if you were born in England in a cardboard box, and lived out your life in said box, you would be throroughly English throughout?

    "Excess weight in the craft sir! We must throw logic overboard!"

    All that seems to me to add up to what I've been saying. From the basis of those choices, you can can form whatever national identity you chose.

    You have said nothing more facile in this than "If you were born in England, you're English!" and you have given nothing in the way of justification for saying why said nationality is set, as you claim. I would dearly like to hear as wto why nationality is 'set' like this.

    In truth, nothing is set in life, except for Paddy Ashdown waffling on about PR. Nastionality is formed via the basis of you deciding - like you outlined - on choices, and ultimately chosing the culture and the ethic that best suits you.

    So if you can chose you culture, and you can chose your values, and you can chose your companions, then why in the name of all that is holy, can you not chose your nationality, which is surely formed on the basis of your culture, values and fraternity?

    If nationality is not formed from those things, then what on earth is it formed from? Some half-mystical bond between you and your area of birth, such as you have hinted at so far?
     
  18. MrPresident

    MrPresident Anglo-Saxon Liberal

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    Yes. They will always have been born in the same place.
    I would respond to this with a detailed insult that involved several hilarious connections between your mother and a Tibetan mountain goat but I'll spare you the embarassement.
    Exactly. I believe this is an area where the is no choice to be made. It is not a matter of infringing on someone's choice because they don't have a choice.
    See above. I my not be your kind of Liberal but that doesn't mean I'm not my kind of liberal. It is ironic isn't it. That you are arguing I can not a liberal despite my choice to be one and I am arguing you can't choose your nationality.
    I don't think where you live or what kind of life you lead has anything to do with nationality. If you choose or are forced to live in a cardboard box then it doesn't change the fact that you are English.
    What about your species?

    Someone living in the third world has no right to come and live in this country without our permission. Why? Because they are not English (or European for that matter). They can claim that they are English all they want but that won't make it so. Birth is not very kind to most people. It is basically the luck of the draw. However it is the way that it is and we can't change that. You are born where you are born and that is your nationality. You can deny it, you can ignore it, you can violently oppose it but you can't change it.
     
  19. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    What if you're born from two Germans people in England during their vacations ?
    Are you German or English ?

    What if you are born in a ship in international waters ?
    :rolleyes:
     
  20. phoenix_night

    phoenix_night Deity

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    i agree with the above.
     

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