On the recent mass killing in Texas

Kyriakos

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Afaik the main argument (whether it is a pretext or not; as an outsider I can see it as a pretext to help special interests, but the locals are those voting) for not making it considerably harder to get firearms in the US is that a population which is armed with at least basic firearms is less likely to succumb (as in 'give up without a fight', not 'defeat gov forces in a pitched battle') to a tyrannical regime.
Now, in regards to how likely such a tyrannical regime is in the US, again I cannot say. I doubt many in tyrannical regimes foresaw their own fate.

Another issue is about the effect a ban or other drastic change regarding owning firearms would have. While it may reduce police crime (due to less fear by the so noble policemen that they will be gunned down), I am not sure if it will really reduce 'mass killing' events, since you can use various other weapons by now to do that if you must. Including chemical weapons (remember Japan).

In other words, removing a way to kill does not have to mean the killing won't happen. Perhaps the better avenue to success would be to remove or diminish the incentive to kill - the latter tends to become impossible, when usually it is argued that those people killed due to (in so many words) being insane. Social problems don't get examined as incentivizing, or not much is done to alleviate them.

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Samson

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Another issue is about the effect a ban or other drastic change regarding owning firearms would have. While it may reduce police crime (due to less fear by the so noble policemen that they will be gunned down), I am not sure if it will really reduce 'mass killing' events, since you can use various other weapons by now to do that if you must. Including chemical weapons (remember Japan).
This is the point. It is perfectly possible to kill loads of people with lots of things, but guns are a really good way. Sarin has been used effectively a couple of times in Japan, it required a lot of work to produce and distribute and killed fewer people than one 18 year old with something that is available from the supermarket.

The other comparison is with knives, as they are frequently used in the UK when in the US it would be a gun. The casualties are far lower, and they can be tackled with a narwhal tusk.

From the point of view of protecting against a tyrannical regime, whether domestic or foreign, it seems to me the focus should be on the "well regulated Militia". To lead an untrained people to war is to throw them away - Confucius.
 
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Samson

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God has upgraded the jawbone of an ass?
Surely he was the terrorist in that case, fighting an asymmetric war against a regime that occupied his homeland, eventually committing suicide at a religious event outside of the war zone killing about the same number of people as 9/11.
 

Kyriakos

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This is the point. It is perfectly possible to kill loads of people with lots of things, but guns are a really good way. Sarin has been used effectively a couple of times in Japan, it required a lot of work to produce and distribute and killed fewer people than one 18 year old with something that is available from the supermarket.

The other comparison is with knives, as they are frequently used in the UK when in the US it would be a gun. The casualties are far lower, and they can be tackled with a narwhal tusk.

From the point of view of protecting against a tyrannical regime, whether domestic or foreign, it seems to me the focus should be on the "well regulated Militia". To lead an untrained people to war is to throw them away - Confucius.

I think that the plan (for the armed civilians) would be simply to survive long enough with guerilla tactics, so as to (hopefully) force the tyrannical regime either to negotiate or risk foreign country intervention. Not saying it is realistic, but it's not an aspiration to fight tanks/airplanes/other in a battle, with rifles.

As for chemicals, yes I was thinking of use of Sarin in Japan. But (with some ingenuity) you can in theory destroy (not kill; permanently disfigure) a couple of tens of people with corrosive chemicals available in the market. That said, maybe in the US the vitrioleur culture is unknown - unlike in western Europe.
 

Samson

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As for chemicals, yes I was thinking of use of Sarin in Japan. But (with some ingenuity) you can in theory destroy (not kill; permanently disfigure) a couple of tens of people with corrosive chemicals available in the market. That said, maybe in the US the vitrioleur culture is unknown - unlike in western Europe.
This is not a purely theoretical question. There are many methods of killing and maiming our fellow humans, and most have been tried at one time or another. We can use our knowledge of how that turns out in the real world to try and make the world better. It sure seems like restricting access to guns means mass killings are less "mass".

[EDIT] I just thought I would add, WRT "with some ingenuity you can in theory destroy (not kill; permanently disfigure) a couple of tens of people with corrosive chemicals available in the market". With a quick google and a few hundred pounds you can make proper weapons grade chemical weapons and large scale explosives. I am actually amazed that there are fewer attacks with such things, but the evidence shows that these things do kill fewer people than guns when guns are freely available.
 
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E.man

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We changed gun ownership laws in Australia decades ago after too many mass shootings. There hasn't been one since. There has been a couple of incidents of cars being used as weapons.

'Well regulated militia' is the bit they usually leave out. It was put in because newly independent USA had just fought British empire with militias and thought it might have to again. It wasn't meant as an invitation to blow the **** out of any innocents you felt like.
 

Fippy

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I just read about the shooting of 19 kids with storm rifles bought for his 18th birthday, those laws are an absolute disgrace.
Apparently he even posted pics with those weapons on IG. I need to hold myself back from writing anything more..

Glad that i'm not living in a country where teenagers have legal access to such weapons.
But those are heart breaking news for everyone.
Any discussion feels pointless since nothing will change..in this messed up political system.
 

Samson

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Any discussion feels pointless since nothing will change..in this messed up political system.
It seems this is less of a given than a year ago. The incidence seems to be going up [1], and a lot of people are talking about changing something. I know nothing, but it seems there is some hope.

Spoiler [1] Some mass killings over the last decade :
 

Birdjaguar

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Repeal the 2A
Repeal the GOP
 

Birdjaguar

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Given how many guns there are in the US it is a good thing that guns don't kill people.
 

r16

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with Militia alone , America would still be Canada .
 

Birdjaguar

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@Narz General frustration at the Republican party for all its misdeeds. We would be better off without them.
 

Kyriakos

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There are how many school shootings in the U.S. a year? And how many .. chemical attacks on schools a year?

What a strange argument.

Chemical attacks - as long as we don't mean @Sarin ( :mischief: ), but stuff you can buy in any supermarket - can increase fast if firearms aren't as easy to get. The use of (for example) sulfuric acid in revenge attacks has risen (again) in western Europe in recent years. And it was a very serious - and very common - weapon of choice in the late 19th and early 20th centuries (then the world wars made h2so4 harder to get, since it had to be used in the military industry).

Sarin, of course, is a very different (and deadly) weapon.
Explosives are somewhere in between.

As for knives; there's no reason to think that anyone planning a mass killing, will try to use a knife. You may hope they'll give up if they can't get a firearm, but there are other means (like those mentioned).

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Samson

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As for knives; there's no reason to think that anyone planning a mass killing, will try to use a knife. You may hope they'll give up if they can't get a firearm, but there are other means (like those mentioned).
It has become one of the main tools. They have been quite high profile in the UK, I am surprised you missed it. Wiki has a page on it with a list of 71 incidents since 2010.
 

EvaDK

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Remember; some Republicans believe the right to abortion is 'dangerous' and 'amoral'. Assault rifles in the hands of teenagers on the other hand, are apparently not.

We all know what happens next; a lot of outcry that eventually amounts to nothing. The NRA will defend the right to own and bear arms and blame this tragedy on something or someone else. Yadda yadda.

People who do not learn from past mistakes, are bound to repeat them in perpetuity.
 
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