On the redevelopment of the logic of employment:

[Cheezy the Wiz]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7760431&postcount=183

As many as the US government wishes... creating new money is free for them. What a government can not afford is to lose control. I don't expect financial collapse to happen suddenly and dramatically, governments always have tools to prevent it. What will happen are more "bailouts", more money dumping, and general disorientation as to why it isn't working.

My guess is that what will bring governments down is mass unemployment, accumulating over this year. That they can't control simply by creating new money.
The unemployment problem has been developing for a very long time, it was an inevitable consequence of the increase of productivity. Fools (supported with the academic authority of many economists) kept claiming that technological change (more and better automation) just shifted jobs around. A look back at history would show them very clearly that every single big social chance was caused by technological evolution. With disruptive technologies, and the flexible (software driven) automation since the 1970s is one, jobs don't just shift around, the whole fabric of society changes.
When agriculture became more productive we had an age of revolutions, the development of cities and industrialization. When "heavy" industry - metals, textiles (yes, I know that economic texts don't call it "heavy") fertilizers and base chemicals, etc. - ceased being the main urban employer (between and including the World Wars) we had another revolution, with "services" and to a huge degree the state supplying new job demand. But even services can be improved, automated. So now we will be forced to acknowledge a third big change. As with the other epoch changes this one will take (has been taking) a few years. From attempting to shore up the old organization, to searching for a new one, to build it... We should have a thread to discuss the various ways to recreate the logic of employment, I guess...

Anyway, as the old organization goes so does the political support of the current power holders. Some will "recycle" themselves (politicians, as politics, are eternal), others will disappear form scene. I just hope that this will be a peaceful change.

Done.

 

[Godwynn]

If we got rid of welfare it would motivate these bums to get jobs.

 

[pau17]

Zbigniew Brzezinski had a rather dark outlook on this, when he essentially predicted that at some point in the medium- to long-term future, only 20% of the population would need to be employed for society to run. As for the other 80%, they would get public works jobs and be pacified by "tittytainment" (Brzezinski's term for "intoxicating entertainment and sufficient nourishment" that can "tranquilize the frustrated minds of the globe's population.")

If we are to avoid dystopian scenarios like this, I hope we can keep population growth in check as we automatize the more mundane tasks.

 

[Perfection]

Can I be a tittytainer?

 

[hossam]

this current recession is actually a conspiracy to bolster military recruitment. during recessionary periods more people join the military. look it up.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Zbigniew Brzezinski had a rather dark outlook on this, when he essentially predicted that at some point in the medium- to long-term future, only 20% of the population would need to be employed for society to run. As for the other 80%, they would get public works jobs and be pacified by "tittytainment" (Brzezinski's term for "intoxicating entertainment and sufficient nourishment" that can "tranquilize the frustrated minds of the globe's population.")

If we are to avoid dystopian scenarios like this, I hope we can keep population growth in check as we automatize the more mundane tasks.

Another option would be to send vast parts of the population off on colonizing missions into space, or otherwise figure out a way to encourage massive emigration from Earth.

 

[Martacus]

Another option would be to send vast parts of the population off on colonizing missions into space, or otherwise figure out a way to encourage massive emigration from Earth.

But this would begin the proliferation of Giant Death Robots, and then all military duties would be taken over by teenagers. This would cause massive unemployment among those over the age of 18, resulting in another economic collapse. Space colonization would be a zero-sum game.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

But this would begin the proliferation of Giant Death Robots, and then all military duties would be taken over by teenagers. This would cause massive unemployment among those over the age of 18, resulting in another economic collapse. Space colonization would be a zero-sum game.

This is actually meant to be a serious thread, despite the nature of the the first few posts in it. Please try to keep it one. Thanks.

 

[GoodGame]

this current recession is actually a conspiracy to bolster military recruitment. during recessionary periods more people join the military. look it up.

Yeah good consipiracy theory. Less bonuses paid to new enlistees then.

I'm already suspecting Obama was regime change to disguise a pre-emptive invasion of Iran.

But that's just paranoid, no?


Anyways the worst that would be done with unemployment is repetitive hand-outs, a la Peron-ism. In lieu of that, I'd rather see any form of make-work. And in further, I'd rather see make-work that results in self-sustaining industries that benefits society.

But best of all, I'd like to see the tax cuts maintained (which they will), and creation of a pro-domestic banking system that is strong against international fluctuation, and gives priority to lending to domestic industries that strengthen the local economy. That will be the best way to maintain strong employment.

 

[Martacus]

This is actually meant to be a serious thread, despite the nature of the the first few posts in it. Please try to keep it one. Thanks.

Sorry. But to be serious, I really do not believe that space colonization will ever be profitable. The vast amounts of energy required to transport people/cargo from one place to another, let alone set up self-sustaining bases suitable for human life, would be staggering. The energy put out by the sun may be effectively infinite; our capacity to capture and use it is not.

 

[Cutlass]

Zbigniew Brzezinski had a rather dark outlook on this, when he essentially predicted that at some point in the medium- to long-term future, only 20% of the population would need to be employed for society to run. As for the other 80%, they would get public works jobs and be pacified by "tittytainment" (Brzezinski's term for "intoxicating entertainment and sufficient nourishment" that can "tranquilize the frustrated minds of the globe's population.")

If we are to avoid dystopian scenarios like this, I hope we can keep population growth in check as we automatize the more mundane tasks.

We could survive with only 20% of the population in productive employment. But we couldn't prosper that way. I don't know what the percentage of the population in non productive jobs is, but I bet there are a lot of them.

 

[Theige]

Can I be a tittytainer?

Word. Where do i sign?

 

[Gogf]

Zbigniew Brzezinski had a rather dark outlook on this, when he essentially predicted that at some point in the medium- to long-term future, only 20% of the population would need to be employed for society to run. As for the other 80%, they would get public works jobs and be pacified by "tittytainment" (Brzezinski's term for "intoxicating entertainment and sufficient nourishment" that can "tranquilize the frustrated minds of the globe's population.")

If we are to avoid dystopian scenarios like this, I hope we can keep population growth in check as we automatize the more mundane tasks.

Society could probably run with 20% of the population employed in relevant jobs at this point. The reason this doesn't happen is that if the other 80% is also employed doing useful stuff, then everybody's standard of living goes up. Just because we could function a certain way doesn't mean we ever will, because there is no incentive to.

I really don't understand why so many people are so fixated on viewing the world from the perspective of vast dark forces controlling people's lives. People have and will continue to control their own lives and economic habits.

 

[Gogf]

We could survive with only 20% of the population in productive employment. But we couldn't prosper that way. I don't know what the percentage of the population in non productive jobs is, but I bet there are a lot of them.

Bingo. I think the point is that defining "non-productive" is really unimportant. If we're talking about how we could survive, then all we really care about are truckers, farmers, and electricians, home repairmen, etc. This is almost certainly much less than 20% of the population already.

 

[mrt144]

Star Trek has the logic already. Cheap energy = holodeck addiction!

 

[ecuwins]

The "automation" in and of itself creates a few jobs while making many others obsolete. Someone has to maintain and repair the "automation" periodicity, after all. This is why it's important to continue education/training throughout one's career.

 

[Gustave5436]

People have and will continue to control their own lives and economic habits.

To a degree, yes. However, a person cannot be truly free while he is ruled by capital.

 

[Yeekim]

To a degree, yes. However, a person cannot be truly free while he is ruled by capital.

He also can't be truly free while he has to eat, drink, breathe and crap.

 

[Newbunkle]

Don't worry, the government will wave its magic wand and conjure up new jobs for everyone, just like it would do in other systems.

To a degree, yes. However, a person cannot be truly free while he is ruled by capital.

There aren't any better alternatives.

 

[Mise]

The solution is the same as it's been in the past -- education.