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On White Nationalism

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Estebonrober, Mar 14, 2019 at 7:32 PM.

  1. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Chieftain

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    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazin...frum-how-much-immigration-is-too-much/583252/

    hrough much of the 20th century, the United States received comparatively few immigrants. In the 60 years from 1915 until 1975, nearly a human lifetime, the United States admitted fewer immigrants than arrived, legally and illegally, in the single decade of the 1990s.

    If you grew up in the 1950s, the 1960s, or even the 1970s, heavy immigration seemed mostly a chapter from the American past, narrated to the nostalgic strains of The Godfather or Fiddler on the Roof. The Ellis Island immigrant-inspection station—through which flowed the ancestors of so many of today’s Americans—closed in 1954. It reopened as a museum in 1990.


    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazin...erwer-madison-grant-white-nationalism/583258/

    t was america that taught us a nation should not open its doors equally to all nations,” Adolf Hitler told The New York Times half a decade later, just one year before his elevation to chancellor in January 1933. Elsewhere he admiringly noted that the U.S. “simply excludes the immigration of certain races. In these respects America already pays obeisance, at least in tentative first steps, to the characteristic völkisch conception of the state.” Hitler and his followers were eager to claim a foreign—American—lineage for the Nazi mission.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1896/06/restriction-of-immigration/306011/


    t is true that in the past there has been gross and scandalous neglect of this matter on the part both of government and people, here in the United States. For nearly two generations, great numbers of persons utterly unable to earn their living, by reason of one or another form of physical or mental disability, and others who were, from widely different causes, unfit to be members of any decent community, were admitted to our ports without challenge or question. It is a matter of official record that in many cases these persons had been directly shipped to us by states or municipalities desiring to rid themselves of a burden and a nuisance; while it could reasonably be believed that the proportion of such instances was far greater than could be officially ascertained. But all this is of the past. The question of the restriction of immigration to-day does not deal with that phase of the subject. What is proposed is, not to keep out some hundreds, or possibly thousands of persons, against whom lie specific objections like those above indicated, but to exclude perhaps hundreds of thousands, the great majority of whom would be subject to no individual objections; who, on the contrary, might fairly be expected to earn their living here in this new country, at least up to the standard known to them at home, and probably much more. The question to-day is not of preventing the wards of our almshouses, our insane asylums, and our jails from being stuffed to repletion by new arrivals from Europe; but of protecting the American rate of wages, the American standard of living, and the quality of American citizenship from degradation through the tumultuous access of vast throngs of ignorant and brutalized peasantry from the countries of eastern and southern Europe.

    These three pieces form the Atlantic this month and the last piece being from the Atlantic in 1896 tell a very American story about immigration. What it means to be an American, how whiteness has always played a pivotal role in that discussion even today. I find it telling that one of the most horrific policies of the last century was born here and that its antithetical was born here as well. It's telling to read these stories because they continually shift the boundary of Americaness or whiteness (however you want to read that) to mean more and more things. At one point it meant only wasps, then Irish Catholics were let in, then Italians and so on. The ability to recognize our past struggles with this topic should guide or decisions moving forward.

    Why America is great and getting greater all the time? A constant influx of immigrants with ambition and dynamic personalities. This is our history from the founding on and it must be states that to continue this means to continue promoting good immigration in serious numbers. The most troubling aspect of white ethno-nationalism is obviously its inherent ignorance of racial hierarchy or minimally its intense apathy towards mixing cultures. Of course mixing cultures is and has been previously why the American experiment has continued to excel and slowing that down will hurt it.

    There is room for negotiation. Maybe a pause in the speed of immigration and certainly as Frum argues a reworking of the immigration system as a whole has been overdue for almost 20 years now. We could use a quota system that still involves letting in the impoverished at a certain rate while focusing on educated foreign nationals for a while. What we can't do is allow the story of America to be hijacked by far right wing reactionaries that are patently un-american. In their thought, in their politics, and in their hearts. We must rebuke these sentiments for what they are, racism. So while placating the masses with an immigration reform is necessary, quotas based on color, religion, or sex will not be acceptable. If America and the freedoms it represents is to lead the world moving forward it must resemble the world. Marching into white holes of clean safe spaces is not an answer.
     
  2. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    There's no such thing as 'white nationalism'. Anyone who thinks so is an enemy of the nation. So it is actually white traitorism.
     
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  3. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Chieftain

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    Well I obviously agree, but just as obvious the USA has a long history of playing with it as we are now.
     
  4. metatron

    metatron deplorable ally

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    Comparisons between German Nazism and institutionalised racism in the US are typically very ill-fated.
    Maybe there's mitigation in the remainder of the article but i can't be bothered to check right now.

    Racism in then Anglosphere is of a specific kind. And racism in the US is even more specific and highly eccentric. To obfuscate how different it is to the racism in most cultures outside a) the new world and b) the five primary colonising countries is... "problematic" as you guys would say.
     
  5. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Chieftain

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    Well I don;t like it when that word is used in the way you are using it. It's either racist at some level or its not , I've argued before there are different levels of racism that should be delineated if for no other reason then to specify that some forms of racism are far more insidious and long lasting than others. I think these three articles point to the roots of the passive sort of racism that is taking place right now. Even though the Republicans here don;t speak of White Nationalism on the floor of Congress they are making those arguments. It should be acknowledged.

    The article cites the borrowing German Nazism used from institutionalized racism the US had developed. It does point out where they parted ways, generally Germany became worse.
     
  6. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Chieftain

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  7. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Chieftain

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  8. Peuri

    Peuri Game

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    @Estebonroper
    Do you think latin Americans will eventually be considered "white", or will "race" as a meaningful category disappear before that?
     
  9. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    When did the 4channers and co forget that their jokez n racist memes were supposed to be ironic and for shock value. When did they start believing them and committing terrorist acts?
     
  10. stinkubus

    stinkubus Chieftain

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    Why are those comparisons ill-fated? The Nazis more or less copied the US's Jim Crow when crafting their Nuremberg Laws. Several incredibly prominent Americans were very supportive of Hitler, all the way through the conduct of WWII. When allied forces invaded Germany they were going against tanks and munitions that were made in American designed and American built factories. Ford, GM, and IBM all made a mint helping the Nazis. Men like Walt Disney funded pro-Nazi propaganda.

    You can also watch the recent documentary, A Night at the Garden, about a pro-Nazi rally that look place at Madison Square Garden in 1939. Twenty-thousand were in attendance.

    The idea that the Nazis were some sort of mortal enemy to American ideals is Hollywood-revisionist history.
     
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  11. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    A large number of Latin Americans are already considered white, or at least exist in the same grey area (so to speak) between white and not-white occupied by, say, Iranians. The framing of Latinos as a "race" owes more to the weird American conviction that ethnic differences can either be broken down into racial differences, or don't really exist. (As if that has ever described American society.)
     
  12. Peuri

    Peuri Game

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    Europe has that too, not necessarily on some pseudo-theoretical level as the US does, but still in people's imagination. For some reason people from Syria, say, are not thought of as white, but people from the south of Spain are.
     
  13. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    I think the key thing to understand about "whiteness" is that it's a category developed in the context of colonialism, so the classification of people into white and not-white can very broadly be seen to reflect their categorisation into people that it is and is not acceptable to colonise, which itself was often worked out from whether or not those places contained social and political structures that Europeans were prepared to recognise as legitimate. (This is the source of "the Irish weren't originally white": people didn't start with kooky theories about Irish racial inferiority, but with the fact that Ireland was an English colonial possession, that Irish society was not regarded as a genuine society but as a state of barbarous pre-society, and worked out the theories from there.)

    Even the ambiguous status of Middle Easterners might be seen to represent the ambiguous status of the Middle East within European diplomatic systems: sometimes as legitimate if backwards powers, somebody as barbarian potentates. It's possibly not a coincidence that Middle Easterners lean towards "white" in the United States, given that until recently the United States has had no particular colonial interest in the area, where in France they lean strongly towards "non-white", given that French involvement in the region can be roughly summed up as "garbage pirate empire".
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019 at 2:09 PM
  14. metatron

    metatron deplorable ally

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    How about you build yourself a time machine, you go meat the actual Nazis and you debate, say, the One Drop Rule with them.

    When you get back, we'll talk.
     
  15. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Chieftain

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    I do. I East Asians are closer.
     
  16. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    White Nationalism is just nativism rebranded. Every time you hear anyone talking about returning to traditional values, they actually mean segregation and that.

    Imperialism came up with some really awful ideologies, I would say.
     
  17. Peuri

    Peuri Game

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    I'm not sure that's exactly how it was. Even in France the upper classes around the 18th-19th centuries saw themselves racially superior to the peasants, whom they (or at least some?) saw as originating in Celtic stock, whereas they saw themselves as Germanic, and thus as a part of the superior Northern race, just like the English did. So did the French upper classes see themselves as colonising France? You obviously could create such a narrative from the fall of Rome, but it would rather seem that atleast there kooky theories existed without colonialism? How does the English idea of the Norman yoke play into all this? Did they see "the Normans" as racially inferior, or just morally so?

    The colonial part is rather interesting though, because the Swedes saw the Finns and Sami as racially inferior, but that was after Sweden lost Finland to Russia. So was that a way to avoid some sort of guilt for empire, a comfort for losing 40% of the landmass or justification for assimilating the Finns that remained in Sweden? Ironically the Finns tried to shift the "accusation" of being inferior Asiatics to the Sami and whitewash themselves around the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries. That coincides pretty nicely chronologically to increased Finnish interests in Lapland.
     
  18. stinkubus

    stinkubus Chieftain

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    Other than bolstering your argument I can't think of a single reason why anyone should focus on this point to the exclusion of all others.
     
  19. metatron

    metatron deplorable ally

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    @stinkubus
    Either you want to engage American racism with intellectual honesty or not.
    The common liberal American narrative of communality between American racism and Nazism is problematic, partially untrue (to phrase it conservatively), and not very useful... aside from its considerable political and emotional convenience.
    I'll not "prove" this in this thread in the face of snooty, self-serving attitudes. Partially because i don't like to uselessly talk about Nazism at great length and partly because i'm unwilling to do American labor while being heckled.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019 at 4:51 AM
  20. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    The US has always been obsessed with race in a way that goes way, way beyond what was seen in other colonial societies. Sure, in colonial Latin America you also had a rough hierarchy where "the whiter the better", but the obsession with racial purity and the actual hatred towards non-whites were absent (which is not to say they were not massacred in the case of the Indians and enslaved in the case of Africans; but this was done out of greed). Perhaps this is due to the fact Spaniards and Portuguese were all too aware that they are mutts themselves: considerable North African, Jewish and even Black African - in the case of Southern Portuguese - blood flows in their veins. Perhaps it's due to old Anglo-Saxon chauvinism, which evolved from a disdain (if not hatred) of the Welsh, Irish and Scots towards a disdain (if not hatred) of dark skinned people.

    I don't know for sure. What I do know is that it created a society weirdly obsessed with race, where even the opponents of racism talk the language of racists ("let's count how many "people of color" are in this TV show to call out the producers!"). Whereas in Latin America the reaction to the old racial hierarchy took the form of a celebration of miscigenation, in the US it took the form of the celebration of the non-white "races", often in quite racist terms (e.g., Black Nationalism). Even their current conception of what a non-racist society would look like - a multicultural one with multiple "communities" that work together - is still fundamentally built around their obsession with race and incapacity to look past it.
     
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