One AI Far Ahead

[cgannon64]

This is the second game in a row this happened.

In my last game I was the Maya. I was doing quite well for myself. By the late Industrial ages came around, I had conquered the Iroquois, Americans, Carthaginians, and Inca. I had my core well carved out, and any new territory would be superfluous. I was bombing the Maya into submission, and I figured the game was mine. (I wasn't necessarily going for a win since I was trying an all-air war against the Mayans, but I still expected to have a chance.) Anyway on the other continent the French were far ahead. They had destroyed the Spanish and were almost done with the Dutch. They had a large tech lead (they were a few techs into the Modern Age) and they got, and I'm not exaggerating, just about EVERY wonder in the Ancient and Middle Ages. Naturally they won this game by a Culture victory.

Now, in my current game, the same thing is happening. I am the Dutch. It is the Middle Ages, pretty early - I and most of the AIs just got Knights and have Invention. Anyway, I just conquered the English and I'm almost done with the Iroquois. The Germans will be next, and I can probably do the Portugese at the same time (they only have 4 cities). Now, the other AI on my continent, the Sumerians, are huge. Boosed by a great start and a city they popped from a hut (I think) they're about the size of me, teh former English territory, and the Iroquois put together. They have a few wonders (2-4) and they just built Copernicus' Observatory. Considering I and my fellow AI have Knights and Invention, that's pretty far ahead.

Why is this? Why does one AI civ keep on running away with the game? And more importantly, how can I stop them? Should I go after them right away, before their lead grows?

EDIT: BTW in this game I actually have a chance to go after the Sumerians, probably before Cavs. However in the other game, because they were on the other continent, I couldn't. Does this mean I should go after them as soon as I can? Even though it would be a very tough, probably drawn out war. Should I try to kill them, or try to leech off them, getting techs from them?

Oh I also have the Great Library, but it will expire soon. And since I'm about to kill the Germans, there won't be a second AI to give me free techs (well there will be the Portugese but they are very backwards.)

 

[Ribannah]

Hi,

It sounds like you're warring a lot. Are you also building up your infrastructure?

 

[cgannon64]

Yes. In my current game my core cities pretty much have every improvement (except Cathedrals, which I don't even build alot of the time anyway) AND I have a large enough army for my conquests. This is all on Emperor, BTW.

My problem is not with my gameplay (IMO), its with the AIs. The monster AI is usually not a direct neighbor so I can't do too much to stop them early.

I'm just wondering if anyone else has experienced this, and what they do to stop it, etc. This has never really happened to me pre-C3C; maybe other people are noticing this in C3C too?

 

[Adam7Eight]

I am noticing a similar thing, but it's with the Inca. It's been three games in a row now (C3C v1.12, Monarch level) that they have had gigantic leads in land and population size, and mainly in technology. I'm talking half an age ahead in techs too. I can see an AI civ getting lucky with goody huts but with that many techs and it's always the same civ, well it makes me a bit curious. I haven't played beyond the early Industrial ages yet either. I am going to start a new one without the Incas just for kicks and see what happens.

 

[Zardnaar]

What difficulty level are you playing at? Are you familar with tech trading to slow the AI down. You can't afford to sit there and let anAI stay in Democracy while you go forth and conquer.

 

[mrmitchell]

Well you know, before C3C all the AIs thought "Damn, how do we keep letting that human civ run away with the game?"

I dunno. I haven't yet observed that but maybe I'm just not playing enough.

 

[cgannon64]

I'm playing on Emperor. And what do you mean, tech trading to slow the AI down? I know how to trade to speed ME up.

Although I can't really trade any more. There are only three civs left - the Sumerians (who I'm at war with again), the Portugese (who are a few techs behind) and the Germans (who I'm at parity with but don't seem to be doing anything).

 

[derekroth]

The Inca, they do that to me too!! I played a game as the inca and I think I know why they can get a good lead. With the Inca special unit, just about every good hut gave me technology.

Anyway, from what it sounds like, I play in a similar way to cgannon64. Usually I can catch up and surpass the other "big guy" before the modern age.

This game however, I am having the same thing you are describing. I try to trade, and sometimes I can develope a technology and trade it with one of the other civs on my par, but usually I have to also include some rediculous amount of money. The Inca haven't won yet, but once they make the UN (and they will), the game will be over.

 

[Chieftess]

I've noticed that the agricultural civs (especially the Celts, Incas and Mayas) seem to do VERY well. The French have always seemed to do well in my games, too (ind/com is very good for infrastructure and techs). But, try to keep the AI at war with eachother. That'll help to slow the tech pace down. If one AI is getting too much of a lead, then have the other civs gang up on it. The AI seems to put aside a set amount of gpt per war. Also, the double gpt bug helps them, too... atleast before 1.12.

 

[wilbill]

I think it's always been the case that if certain civs (the ones Chieftess mentions as well as the Americans, Persians, even Babs) get a good start, win an early war or two against other AI's, and are allowed to sit and grow on their own continent for too long they can pose a threat to the human player. If I see that happening I do my best to do something to slow them down as early as possible.

 

[cgannon64]

What do you do to slow them down?

BTW its pretty obvious its going to be a showdown between my and Sumeria now. They just started their third war to get my border city, and they took down my Swiss Merc. army with about 20 Longbows. Anyway that city will probably fall, and I'll have to send up my Knights to take it back (which shouldn't be hard).

I planned on going for Germany first, but I make keep on marching my knights through Portugal to take them out. Maybe.

 

[Yumbo]

I planned on going for Germany first

When you identify a threat like Portugal in your game, you need to immediately focus all of your energies on weakening that threat, or else the game will be lost. Even a minor diversion like finishing off a pesky but weakened neighbor can ruin your chances. If Portugal is not at war with anyone, and you are fighting Germany, then you are getting weaker (army-wise) while he builds up his forces.

Start shifting all of your armies toward the threatening civ, and give it to them with both barrels.

And, yes, I have noticed this phenom since playing C3C too. I haven't played a game with the patch yet (or at least not far enough to determine for sure), but the culprit (I think) used to be the GPT bug. One Civ would get a slight lead, make GPT deals with other Civs for those 1 or 2 techs, get ridiculously wealthy, and max out those research sliders.

Plus, it seems to me that the AI must use its SGLs more often to trigger Scientific Golden Ages. Sometimes their research rates just suddenly become insane...

 

[ComradeDavo]

For the game i'm playign at the moment (on a larger map 240 X 240 or summin, with 18 civs and 650 turns) I only have domination and conquest victory conditions on, so that I can have one big fight at the end That way you don't have the Ai annoyingly winning by space race or you winning by cultrual right in the middle of taking over the world.

 

[cgannon64]

Originally posted by Yumbo
When you identify a threat like Portugal in your game, you need to immediately focus all of your energies on weakening that threat, or else the game will be lost. Even a minor diversion like finishing off a pesky but weakened neighbor can ruin your chances. If Portugal is not at war with anyone, and you are fighting Germany, then you are getting weaker (army-wise) while he builds up his forces.

Start shifting all of your armies toward the threatening civ, and give it to them with both barrels.

And, yes, I have noticed this phenom since playing C3C too. I haven't played a game with the patch yet (or at least not far enough to determine for sure), but the culprit (I think) used to be the GPT bug. One Civ would get a slight lead, make GPT deals with other Civs for those 1 or 2 techs, get ridiculously wealthy, and max out those research sliders.

Plus, it seems to me that the AI must use its SGLs more often to trigger Scientific Golden Ages. Sometimes their research rates just suddenly become insane...

I think you mixed the names up. To repeat:

Dutch: Me
Germany: The last remaining AI civ at about my level. not really a threat, just another Civ to conquer.
Portugal: A 4-city weakling who is basically a roadblock between me and Sumeria. They are willing to get an MA against the Sumerians but I decided agaisnt it since they would be crushed, and I need them to slow down the Sumerians (and not bring the Sumericans closer).
Sumerians: The monster AI, who is far ahead.

I think I have a legitimate reason to go after the Sumerians right away. For one, I'd have to conquer the Portugese first. This wouldn't be hard, but it would slow me down. So far my game plan would probably be to finish off this quick war with Sumeria (they tried to get my chokepoint city), make peace, conquer Portugal, then set up a decently organized invasion of Sumeria. It would be very hard, but I think its doable...

I'm afraid that if I do fight a war with Sumeria, either right away or in a little while, I'll just get dragged into a long stalemate, and the Sumerians, with their huge core, will either get even more of a tech lead or slowly beat me...

 

[Frimlin]

In the game I'm playing now, I decided beforehand that I wanted to try winning by Cultural Victory, so that was the only Victory condition I allowed. Sometimes I allow all, and choose on the way -- but I wanted to try being more definite at the very start.

I may not win, and my main culural rival, Korea, may not win either. I could always try another game, with another set of Victory conditions. Or I could just lower the difficulty. But I've learnt from this game, and it's helped pass my time. When 2030 comes around, I'd still have had a good game out of it.

Good luck, cgannon64!

 

[Bamspeedy]

When you find a monster AI, you need to get all the other AIs to gang up on him. Especially any civ who is trading with that civ! When they can get luxuries from other civs they pull farther ahead.

 

[derekroth]

The problem with monster civs that I always encounter is that they are located on the other continent (I only play continent). My the time I notice they are "monster" there is no amount of gangup that will stop them. In fact, I usualy start gifting technology and resources to the monster's neighbors just so that this monster wont have such an easy time becoming even larger. And, for me to try to stage any sort of amphibious invasion would be absolute lunacy. I'm still second best in my latest game, but there really is no prayer for victory.

This is where reputation would have really helped. If I could convince some of the other civs to embargo this country maybe he wouldn't be such a juggernaut. But the other civs hate me more than they hate him.

 

[Adam7Eight]

I have reached the conclusion that the Agricultural trait is way too good. As I stated earlier, the Incas seem to always run away with the game. So, I sarted another on Monarch without Barbs (no goody huts to get rid of the Expansionist advantage) and once again the Incas have an over-powering lead in land, population, and most importantly technology. So far, half way through the middle ages, they have at least a 5 tech lead on me and Russia, who are about equal (Don't know why, but I'm playing as Arabia, again). This Agr. trait is so good that it's unfair. I'm going to let the game playout and see what happens. I have been building scientific and cultural improvments like crazy, while trading like mad to make some cash so I can keep the scientific research going, so we'll see.

 

[Frimlin]

Seems to me some worlds just can't be "won." So you have to choose to play with ones you know it's more possible on.

I know the extra Victory conditions go a long way towards this, but maybe we need to gain a sense of winning from other positive accomplishments.

If I could convince some of the other civs to embargo this country maybe he wouldn't be such a juggernaut. But the other civs hate me more than they hate him.

Maybe they're happy with the world as it is, and don't care whether you feel you've won or lost. Maybe that kind of detante is idyllic, and should be a victory condition in itself. I often find ending such games seems to make the game seem pointless, yet surely more can be said about it if it is, afterall, the kind of future most of us want on our Earth anyhow -- I don't think anybody would be happy if only one nation (or a few) "won" with any of the Civ-esque Victory conditions.

 

[cgannon64]

Well, I just made contact with the other continent, and its looking brighter. They have their own super-Civ - the Celts, who are one tech ahead of everyone (except me - my Great Library went out in one great bang). And the Sumerian tech lead isn't that large compared to the other AIs. It just seems that I was on teh slow continent.

Oh, and considering I now have 4 4-Knight armies, his military is looking alot more defeatable...